EcoRenovator  

Go Back   EcoRenovator > Improvements > Geothermal & Heat Pumps
Advanced Search
 


Blog Register 60+ Home Energy Saving Tips Recent Posts Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-24-11, 08:43 AM   #581
Xringer
Lex Parsimoniae
 
Xringer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Woburn, MA
Posts: 4,875
Thanks: 106
Thanked 245 Times in 225 Posts
Default

Benson Airconditioning | Wall Split Systems

These Downunder guys really like R-290!

Xringer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-11, 01:11 PM   #582
AC_Hacker
Supreme EcoRenovator
 
AC_Hacker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,002
Thanks: 303
Thanked 712 Times in 532 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xringer View Post
"Here's a guy who re-charged his home Air Conditioner with propane (R-290). He got it working again...
no surprise. Also has information on the environmental benefits of R-290...also way cheaper.
"


I watched his vids and read his blog with great interest..
I also noticed his youtube chat about possibly using R-290 in an R-410a system..


As you know, I have a broken R-410a outdoor system and could buy the indoor side for about $500.

Please comment..

Thanks,
Rich
You'll need to make some kind of modification to the metering device, and also change out the compressor lubricant.

-AC_Hacker
__________________
I'm not an HVAC technician. In fact, I'm barely even a hacker...
AC_Hacker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-11, 01:14 PM   #583
AC_Hacker
Supreme EcoRenovator
 
AC_Hacker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,002
Thanks: 303
Thanked 712 Times in 532 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xringer View Post
Benson Airconditioning | Wall Split Systems

These Downunder guys really like R-290!
Yeah they do, and they also sell flammable gas monitors, just in case.

Did you see this page?

-AC_Hacker
__________________
I'm not an HVAC technician. In fact, I'm barely even a hacker...
AC_Hacker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-11, 01:36 PM   #584
Xringer
Lex Parsimoniae
 
Xringer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Woburn, MA
Posts: 4,875
Thanks: 106
Thanked 245 Times in 225 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC_Hacker View Post
Yeah they do, and they also sell flammable gas monitors, just in case.

Did you see this page?

-AC_Hacker
I did see that page. And "Refrigerant losses are calculated at 2% per year." Seems pretty high..
Are they saying that all systems are leaking? Or is it those that fail completely, causing the 2% ?
Xringer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-11, 01:54 PM   #585
Xringer
Lex Parsimoniae
 
Xringer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Woburn, MA
Posts: 4,875
Thanks: 106
Thanked 245 Times in 225 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC_Hacker View Post
You'll need to make some kind of modification to the metering device, and also change out the compressor lubricant.

-AC_Hacker

The 'study' implied that R290 could be a 'Drop-In' replacement for R410a,
and that R290 would cool better and use less power..

It seemed like they didn't have to make any mods..
But, the last part does recommend a change be made to the capillary tube..
To avoid very high "evaporating temperature"..



"
For further discussion, even the optimum charge is
found from the experiments, the evaporating
temperature found to be very high 14.6C,

`For air conditioning application the temperature for
evaporation is 5C and condensing temperature is
45C.

`For the result above and requirement stated show that
there is an accurate result due to system setup.

`Even the manufacturer claim that R290 is suitable as
direct replacement for R22 andR410A (in the case of
this experiment), we found that minor modification
need to be done on the system.

`Suitable capillary tube should be change and follow
with further investigation.
"
Xringer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-11, 02:26 PM   #586
AC_Hacker
Supreme EcoRenovator
 
AC_Hacker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,002
Thanks: 303
Thanked 712 Times in 532 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xringer View Post
The 'study' implied that R290 could be a 'Drop-In' replacement for R410a,
and that R290 would cool better and use less power..

It seemed like they didn't have to make any mods..
But, the last part does recommend a change be made to the capillary tube..
To avoid very high "evaporating temperature"..
That would be the mod I had in mind.

I don't know if your unit has the cap tube or the TXV valve metering device. If it's the TXV, there is a possibility that the screw adjustment would do the trick. The screw will adjust over some range, don't know if swapping R-410a to R-290 would fall within that range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xringer View Post
`Even the manufacturer claim that R290 is suitable as
direct replacement for R22 andR410A (in the case of
this experiment), we found that minor modification
need to be done on the system.

`Suitable capillary tube should be change and follow
with further investigation.
You might want to do a little more research into refrigerant lubricant compatibility.

I do know that mineral oil lubricants are not soluble in R-410a, that's why the synthetic lubes.

I suspect, but I am not completely sure if the synthetic lubricants are soluble in R-270. My suspicion is that they are not.

If it was my project, I'd find out for sure.

-AC_Hacker
__________________
I'm not an HVAC technician. In fact, I'm barely even a hacker...
AC_Hacker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-11, 03:07 PM   #587
Xringer
Lex Parsimoniae
 
Xringer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Woburn, MA
Posts: 4,875
Thanks: 106
Thanked 245 Times in 225 Posts
Default

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1.../referFlow.jpg
Dual tubes.. And, an electronic expansion valve

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/applia...ion-valve.html

Since it uses a temperature sensor as feedback, maybe that electronic expansion valve will allow for using other refrigerants.?.


I've read R290 has good versatility in the type of lubes that can be used.
In the study, they flushed the unit out completely.
I think they didn't want any R410a lube in the system.

If I was going to do this, I would find some R290 compatible lube..

Last edited by Xringer; 02-25-11 at 05:07 PM..
Xringer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-11, 10:03 AM   #588
AC_Hacker
Supreme EcoRenovator
 
AC_Hacker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,002
Thanks: 303
Thanked 712 Times in 532 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xringer View Post
[IMG]I've read R290 has good versatility in the type of lubes that can be used. In the study, they flushed the unit out completely.
I think they didn't want any R410a lube in the system.

If I was going to do this, I would find some R290 compatible lube..
R-290 uses a mineral oil lube, same as R-22 & R-12.

It is the easiest to find and cheapest refrigerant lube available, you should have no problem getting it.

You'll want to be careful when you flush out the old lube, affixed to the input side of your compressor is a filter/dryer that could 'hang on' to old lube, you'll probably want to flush the system a few times.

Also be careful to add the proper amount of lube back in. If you over-fill it, it can cause the compressor to seize and possibly damage the system.

Boy, if your house was set up for low temperature hydronic, the uber-cool setup would be to hack your outside unit to heat water for your house. This would really be the ultimate hack as it would significantly boost COP above what you are now enjoying.

As it is, with the hydronic radiators you have, the feed temp would be just too high.

BTW, perhaps a bit off topic, here's a chart of COP v Air Temp for ASHP. This is for a particular brand, but the trend is interesting to see.


-AC_Hacker
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	COP v Temp_ASHP.gif
Views:	4418
Size:	9.6 KB
ID:	1288  
__________________
I'm not an HVAC technician. In fact, I'm barely even a hacker...
AC_Hacker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-11, 12:02 PM   #589
Xringer
Lex Parsimoniae
 
Xringer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Woburn, MA
Posts: 4,875
Thanks: 106
Thanked 245 Times in 225 Posts
Default

The oil doesn't sound too hard to find. Just getting the amount right..

I'm surprised at how well my hydronic radiators work at lower water temps.
If the water is above the room air temperature, there is some heating going on.
If it's 100f or higher, it works pretty well to supplement other heat sources.

Interesting plot. Still getting a COP of 2 at 10F.. I've noticed the power use
can get up to around 700-900w when it's 10-12 F outdoors.
Compared to right now, it's 35F (and raining) and we are using 600w (ave).

~~~

Firstly, I need to find and repair that leak.. Which I think is under the sensor tube.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...r/NCL/r027.jpg
It's in a tight spot..
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...eakysilver.jpg

This is a job that's going to have to wait for warmer weather.

Last edited by Xringer; 02-25-11 at 05:08 PM..
Xringer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-11, 02:44 PM   #590
AC_Hacker
Supreme EcoRenovator
 
AC_Hacker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,002
Thanks: 303
Thanked 712 Times in 532 Posts
Default Move to New Thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xringer View Post
The oil doesn't sound too hard to find. Just getting the amount right..:
Xringer,

What do you think about starting another thread to move this worthy dialog to. I fear that it is diluting the GSHP information I'm trying to create.

We can copy this dialog and paste to the new thread.

-AC_Hacker

__________________
I'm not an HVAC technician. In fact, I'm barely even a hacker...
AC_Hacker is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Tags
air conditioner, diy, gshp, heat pump, homemade

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Ad Management by RedTyger
Inactive Reminders By Icora Web Design