Compost as a Heat Source

go4haudio · 04-20-11, 04:49 PM

Compost as heat source?
I am starting this thread on the suggestion of A/C Hacker whose thread "Homemade Heatpump Manifesto" inspired me. A well composted mass often reaches temperatures of 150-180 degrees Fahrenheit. With careful planning this heat can be generated and used efficiently even in a suburban setting. With unrest in the middle east, competition from China for energy, and a lack of renewable energy infrastructure energy prices are bound to rise making "compost heat" more attractive. Over the next few months I intend to discuss collecting compost from a variety of sources, composting methods, collecting and using compost heat, using by products of the composting process, and the advantages and disadvantages of compost compared to other fuel sources. I invite bloggers to participate in sharing knowledge and experience. For so long we have been dependent on cheap fossil fuels that we have lost our connection to the green energy that mother earth provides. Therefore few people are aware of the potential energy in compost and even fewer utilize it. I hope together we can make our world a more harmonious and sustainable system.

Piwoslaw · 04-21-11, 01:02 AM

I once read about someone who made a compost bin against one of the house's walls, thereby helping to heat that wall.
I also think I remember reading about someone using compost to preheat water.
But no links for either

EDIT: I just saw where you are. I guess that you can compost for the whole year round. In many places composting happens only during the warmer months, when heating is not needed.

EDIT#2: The more I look at my city's problems with waste management (i.e. wasting trash, instead of reusing it), the more I'd like to start up a large composting set-up. This would reduce the city's wastestream by 30%-40% and give quite a bit of good soil, plus any extra energy (heat + methane) would make the project more feasible. With the composting happening inside a building, the heat would be able to keep it running year round, with a surplus in the summer.

Daox · 04-21-11, 10:09 AM

Here is some info on a guy who made a fairly large pile. I read it a while ago, don't remember if there were any specifics.

Compost Space Heating Furnace

It looks like I spent about $840 on gas last year.

strider3700 · 04-21-11, 12:08 PM

I always liked this guys setup.
http://www.appropedia.org/Composting...ter_(original)

I use about $260 to heat water and about $300 for space heating.

skyl4rk · 04-21-11, 06:00 PM

YouTube - 500 showers heated from one small compost pile how to tutorial

04-21-11, 07:03 PM

There's another example of compost as a heat source here.

EDIT (by Piwoslaw): The forum's software automatically censors the link's address, so to view the page, copy the following lines and paste as one line:

Code:

http://onestrawrob.com/2010/05/the-methane-midden-epic-sh
it-jean-pain-composting

go4haudio · 04-23-11, 04:06 PM

I am really grateful and for the feedback on this topic. I am also somewhat surprised at how much information is already available on this topic. Compost depends on the action of bacteria. The digestion of organic matter releases heat and CO2. Bacteria need food, water, and air. There are many methods to provide this culture to the bacteria. Simpler methods are most suitable to agrarian lifestyles. One such method can be found here Another Kind of Garden.pdf - File Shared from Box.net - Free Online File Storage starting on page 26 I believe Jean Pain outlines methods for using large mounds of compost as a heat source. Here are some video links of his efforts

YouTube - Jean Pain - English - Part 1

for part one and

YouTube - Jean Pain - English - Part 2

for part two. These methods are simple to implement with access to material and plenty of labor. However these methods are impractical for the average home.

go4haudio · 04-23-11, 05:30 PM

A more practical approach for the average home must be used. Large scale compost mounds provide plenty of food and water for the bacteria but do a poor job aerating the culture medium. A home scale composter would require effort periodically but its heat output would be much faster with less wasted heat radiating needlessly. The effort to compost would be far less frequent than the effort used in stoking a wood stove. Here is one example High-Performance HeatGreen Home Heating System Version 3a you might enjoy reading. Here is located a picture of his device. http://mb-soft.com/public3/zl30a16.jpg One weak link in this device seems to be that it regulates over temperature conditions with increased airflow. I quote "Take this last example, of the maximum performance which I have seen in an HG 3a, around 90,000 Btu/hr. It turns out that with the MINIMUM NEEDED AIRFLOWS we calculated above, the air inside the chamber would get FAR TOO HOT, and you would kill the bacteria in yet another way. Nothing to really worry about, because few people seem to get to that point yet! And installing a thermostat inside the chamber to turn on the blower switch at 150ºF, will keep you from frying your bacteria!" He goes on to postulate that a heat exchanger to regulate the incoming air temperature would be needed in these conditions. A heat exchanger is needed I admit to increase overall heat retention. However my proposed method to regulate heat excesses involves a heatpump, perhaps even a homemade heatpump such as can be found in this Ecorenevator website http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothe...manifesto.html The entire process could be monitored and controlled by an arduino type computer device to be most self sufficient. The heat pump would draw heat from a large capacity insulated water tank that is hydronically connected to the composter. Regulating the heat out put is achieved by two things. First the computer chip can regulate the airflow to the bacteria. Second the choice of composting material can regulate the rate of digestion. For instance fresh grass clippings digest far more quickly than wood chips. Full implementation would be complicated and would not be cheap. But once constructed one would merely feed and water ones bacteria and less frequently clean out a little top quality humus. For many people a less complicated set up would be more appropriate. I will out line that in my next blog. Either approach would benefit from a "Bioshed." The Bioshed would be a shed in which The composter, the raw materials, a water tank, and all the necessary plumbing could be housed protected from the environment.

skyl4rk · 04-23-11, 08:29 PM

In the city where I live, in the Fall, everyone rakes the leaves from the yard, and the city takes away huge volumes of leaves. This is a free resource. Until now I just thought of the piles of free compost from past years leaf collections, but now you have me thinking about using the heat generated from composting leaves through the winter.

go4haudio · 04-23-11, 10:29 PM

I like the way you are thinking skyl4rk! The nice thing about fall leaves is they usually are dried up and store pretty well. You might benefit from shredding the leaves so they take up less space. But you can store them dry for a long time without fear they will compost on their own. You might even try posting flyers around your neighborhood requesting bagged leaves. Or you might use craigslist to request people who live near a part of your town contact you if they want leaves picked up. You would need lots of bags of leaves but they are easy to get and easy to store dry. Neighbors wont complain about bags of leaves piling up if you teach them about your system. They will probably want to contribute. Every one wants to be green these days. I will be talking about collecting and storing fuel for compost really soon.
Computer control is great. A far less complicated set up is more in line with most peoples needs. The least complicated compost heat generator is a large compost pile like the one in the video above. It consists of alternate layers of compost and plastic tubing to capture the heat. But this will not suffice for extreme climates in the dead of winter. An insulated box must be constructed to prevent freezing and control airflow and heat exchange. In its simplest form one must create a box with an insulated floor, walls, and ceiling with provisions for air tubes water tubes, and electrical connections. Your bioshed can be placed indoors or outdoors because the air will come from outside and be expelled outside. However indoor designs must be built "air tight" because if your box is relying on fans to circulate air and you should experience a power outage your compost will begin to decompose anaerobically. Methane gas is produced anaerobically and the process smells bad. If your box is well sealed any gas pressure will exit through the vents rather than into your living space.
So let me start describing the process from the ground up. Insulate the floor. How much insulation will depend on your climate but more is always better. The insulation must be capable of maintaining a temperature between 125 degrees Fahrenheit and 180 degrees Fahrenheit. This heat will be generated by the compost itself. Actually less than 180 degrees is probably better. I read a book which described the " U.C. Berkeley Method" of soil sterilization for commercial growers. It describes 180 degrees as the temp to sterilize most pathogens. I am hoping to find this book or any source that can give me better information on temperature ranges for composting bacteria. So lets set the upper limit at 170 degrees Fahrenheit for now.
It occurs to me people want specifics and pictures for any DIY project. I will be outlining my plans for this fall's compost project. The process of composting is as much an art as it is a science. So if you need a quick proven answer too bad for you. But you can join with me as I plan and build my system and watch as I share my results. So how big to build the floor? Well I have a space on the side of my house near my electric water heater ( in Florida an outdoor water heater is not uncommon) and near an outdoor electrical receptacle. That seems good. Also that wall butts up to the bathroom which is always cold anyhow in winter. So I intend to measure this space and begin designing from there.
Some key points of my design will be a system of perforated tubes to allow for ventilation of the compost, a tube in tube heat exchanger that allows for water to distill back into the compost instead of just spewing out warm moist air, hydronic heat coils, various temp sensors, and monitoring plus motor controls located centrally inside for my own comfort.
There is only one problem with this line of thinking. Perhaps you have already spotted it. A design like this one High-Performance HeatGreen Home Heating System Version 3a is already very simple and effective. The fact that it can aerate the compost and turn it makes it far superior to any design that simply insulates a mound. Insulating a mound requires a far larger working mass of compost, requires more insulation, requires more pipes, etc. There is no good middle ground that I can think of. You must either have a giant mound big enough to insulate itself from the cold and steep enough (or covered) to slough off snow and ice or you need an elegant digestion box. I have few concerns with the design I see here. It may actually be too big and produce more heat than is needed depending on what is being composted. It needs a heat exchanger for the incoming and exhaust air. Also it could benefit from buffer tanks to even out the heat exchange instead of increasing airflow.
I can't think of a more elegant solution than a good digester box. Can you? SO I will focus on adapting a digester to fit my needs for this fall. I had to point this out because I fear too many people will try to make compost mounds heat their homes and give up after achieving less than spectacular results, if any. I have shown you my thought process in its naked form. I hope I have not bored you away from this forum topic. My next blog will be about parameters to measure and control in a digeter box system.

View Poll Results: How much do you spend for hot water and home heating?
Less than $500	5	26.32%
$500-$1000	9	47.37%
$1000-$2500	4	21.05%
more than $2500	1	5.26%
Voters: 19. You may not vote on this poll

04-20-11, 04:49 PM	#1
go4haudio Lurking Renovator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: USA, FL Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Compost as a Heat Source Compost as heat source? I am starting this thread on the suggestion of A/C Hacker whose thread "Homemade Heatpump Manifesto" inspired me. A well composted mass often reaches temperatures of 150-180 degrees Fahrenheit. With careful planning this heat can be generated and used efficiently even in a suburban setting. With unrest in the middle east, competition from China for energy, and a lack of renewable energy infrastructure energy prices are bound to rise making "compost heat" more attractive. Over the next few months I intend to discuss collecting compost from a variety of sources, composting methods, collecting and using compost heat, using by products of the composting process, and the advantages and disadvantages of compost compared to other fuel sources. I invite bloggers to participate in sharing knowledge and experience. For so long we have been dependent on cheap fossil fuels that we have lost our connection to the green energy that mother earth provides. Therefore few people are aware of the potential energy in compost and even fewer utilize it. I hope together we can make our world a more harmonious and sustainable system.

04-21-11, 10:09 AM	#3
Daox Administrator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Germantown, WI Posts: 5,525 Thanks: 1,162 Thanked 374 Times in 305 Posts	Here is some info on a guy who made a fairly large pile. I read it a while ago, don't remember if there were any specifics. Compost Space Heating Furnace It looks like I spent about $840 on gas last year. __________________ Current project - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. & To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Last edited by Daox; 04-21-11 at 10:17 AM..

04-21-11, 12:08 PM	#4
strider3700 Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Vancouver Island BC Posts: 745 Thanks: 23 Thanked 37 Times in 30 Posts	I always liked this guys setup. http://www.appropedia.org/Composting...ter_(original) I use about $260 to heat water and about $300 for space heating. Last edited by Piwoslaw; 04-21-11 at 02:29 PM.. Reason: Link fixed

04-21-11, 07:03 PM	#6
Angmaar Guest Posts: n/a	There's another example of compost as a heat source here. EDIT (by Piwoslaw): The forum's software automatically censors the link's address, so to view the page, copy the following lines and paste as one line: Code: http://onestrawrob.com/2010/05/the-methane-midden-epic-sh it-jean-pain-composting Last edited by Piwoslaw; 04-22-11 at 02:07 AM.. Reason: Link url

04-21-11, 01:02 AM	#2
Piwoslaw Super Moderator Join Date: May 2009 Location: Warsaw, Poland Posts: 964 Thanks: 189 Thanked 111 Times in 87 Posts	I once read about someone who made a compost bin against one of the house's walls, thereby helping to heat that wall. I also think I remember reading about someone using compost to preheat water. But no links for either EDIT: I just saw where you are. I guess that you can compost for the whole year round. In many places composting happens only during the warmer months, when heating is not needed. EDIT#2: The more I look at my city's problems with waste management (i.e. wasting trash, instead of reusing it), the more I'd like to start up a large composting set-up. This would reduce the city's wastestream by 30%-40% and give quite a bit of good soil, plus any extra energy (heat + methane) would make the project more feasible. With the composting happening inside a building, the heat would be able to keep it running year round, with a surplus in the summer. __________________ Ecorenovation - the bottomless piggy bank that tries to tame the energy hog. Last edited by Piwoslaw; 04-21-11 at 01:13 AM..

04-23-11, 05:30 PM	#8
go4haudio Lurking Renovator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: USA, FL Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	A more practical approach for the average home must be used. Large scale compost mounds provide plenty of food and water for the bacteria but do a poor job aerating the culture medium. A home scale composter would require effort periodically but its heat output would be much faster with less wasted heat radiating needlessly. The effort to compost would be far less frequent than the effort used in stoking a wood stove. Here is one example High-Performance HeatGreen Home Heating System Version 3a you might enjoy reading. Here is located a picture of his device. http://mb-soft.com/public3/zl30a16.jpg One weak link in this device seems to be that it regulates over temperature conditions with increased airflow. I quote "Take this last example, of the maximum performance which I have seen in an HG 3a, around 90,000 Btu/hr. It turns out that with the MINIMUM NEEDED AIRFLOWS we calculated above, the air inside the chamber would get FAR TOO HOT, and you would kill the bacteria in yet another way. Nothing to really worry about, because few people seem to get to that point yet! And installing a thermostat inside the chamber to turn on the blower switch at 150ºF, will keep you from frying your bacteria!" He goes on to postulate that a heat exchanger to regulate the incoming air temperature would be needed in these conditions. A heat exchanger is needed I admit to increase overall heat retention. However my proposed method to regulate heat excesses involves a heatpump, perhaps even a homemade heatpump such as can be found in this Ecorenevator website http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothe...manifesto.html The entire process could be monitored and controlled by an arduino type computer device to be most self sufficient. The heat pump would draw heat from a large capacity insulated water tank that is hydronically connected to the composter. Regulating the heat out put is achieved by two things. First the computer chip can regulate the airflow to the bacteria. Second the choice of composting material can regulate the rate of digestion. For instance fresh grass clippings digest far more quickly than wood chips. Full implementation would be complicated and would not be cheap. But once constructed one would merely feed and water ones bacteria and less frequently clean out a little top quality humus. For many people a less complicated set up would be more appropriate. I will out line that in my next blog. Either approach would benefit from a "Bioshed." The Bioshed would be a shed in which The composter, the raw materials, a water tank, and all the necessary plumbing could be housed protected from the environment.

04-23-11, 08:29 PM	#9
skyl4rk Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 66 Thanks: 3 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	In the city where I live, in the Fall, everyone rakes the leaves from the yard, and the city takes away huge volumes of leaves. This is a free resource. Until now I just thought of the piles of free compost from past years leaf collections, but now you have me thinking about using the heat generated from composting leaves through the winter.

04-23-11, 10:29 PM	#10
go4haudio Lurking Renovator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: USA, FL Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	An elegant solution I like the way you are thinking skyl4rk! The nice thing about fall leaves is they usually are dried up and store pretty well. You might benefit from shredding the leaves so they take up less space. But you can store them dry for a long time without fear they will compost on their own. You might even try posting flyers around your neighborhood requesting bagged leaves. Or you might use craigslist to request people who live near a part of your town contact you if they want leaves picked up. You would need lots of bags of leaves but they are easy to get and easy to store dry. Neighbors wont complain about bags of leaves piling up if you teach them about your system. They will probably want to contribute. Every one wants to be green these days. I will be talking about collecting and storing fuel for compost really soon. Computer control is great. A far less complicated set up is more in line with most peoples needs. The least complicated compost heat generator is a large compost pile like the one in the video above. It consists of alternate layers of compost and plastic tubing to capture the heat. But this will not suffice for extreme climates in the dead of winter. An insulated box must be constructed to prevent freezing and control airflow and heat exchange. In its simplest form one must create a box with an insulated floor, walls, and ceiling with provisions for air tubes water tubes, and electrical connections. Your bioshed can be placed indoors or outdoors because the air will come from outside and be expelled outside. However indoor designs must be built "air tight" because if your box is relying on fans to circulate air and you should experience a power outage your compost will begin to decompose anaerobically. Methane gas is produced anaerobically and the process smells bad. If your box is well sealed any gas pressure will exit through the vents rather than into your living space. So let me start describing the process from the ground up. Insulate the floor. How much insulation will depend on your climate but more is always better. The insulation must be capable of maintaining a temperature between 125 degrees Fahrenheit and 180 degrees Fahrenheit. This heat will be generated by the compost itself. Actually less than 180 degrees is probably better. I read a book which described the " U.C. Berkeley Method" of soil sterilization for commercial growers. It describes 180 degrees as the temp to sterilize most pathogens. I am hoping to find this book or any source that can give me better information on temperature ranges for composting bacteria. So lets set the upper limit at 170 degrees Fahrenheit for now. It occurs to me people want specifics and pictures for any DIY project. I will be outlining my plans for this fall's compost project. The process of composting is as much an art as it is a science. So if you need a quick proven answer too bad for you. But you can join with me as I plan and build my system and watch as I share my results. So how big to build the floor? Well I have a space on the side of my house near my electric water heater ( in Florida an outdoor water heater is not uncommon) and near an outdoor electrical receptacle. That seems good. Also that wall butts up to the bathroom which is always cold anyhow in winter. So I intend to measure this space and begin designing from there. Some key points of my design will be a system of perforated tubes to allow for ventilation of the compost, a tube in tube heat exchanger that allows for water to distill back into the compost instead of just spewing out warm moist air, hydronic heat coils, various temp sensors, and monitoring plus motor controls located centrally inside for my own comfort. There is only one problem with this line of thinking. Perhaps you have already spotted it. A design like this one High-Performance HeatGreen Home Heating System Version 3a is already very simple and effective. The fact that it can aerate the compost and turn it makes it far superior to any design that simply insulates a mound. Insulating a mound requires a far larger working mass of compost, requires more insulation, requires more pipes, etc. There is no good middle ground that I can think of. You must either have a giant mound big enough to insulate itself from the cold and steep enough (or covered) to slough off snow and ice or you need an elegant digestion box. I have few concerns with the design I see here. It may actually be too big and produce more heat than is needed depending on what is being composted. It needs a heat exchanger for the incoming and exhaust air. Also it could benefit from buffer tanks to even out the heat exchange instead of increasing airflow. I can't think of a more elegant solution than a good digester box. Can you? SO I will focus on adapting a digester to fit my needs for this fall. I had to point this out because I fear too many people will try to make compost mounds heat their homes and give up after achieving less than spectacular results, if any. I have shown you my thought process in its naked form. I hope I have not bored you away from this forum topic. My next blog will be about parameters to measure and control in a digeter box system.