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Old 05-01-09, 12:41 PM   #41
AC_Hacker
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Default What Can We Do With This Thing?

OK, so by now we have some idea how refrigeration works, we have located and purchased an AC unit, we have taken the cover off and inspected it to familiarize ourselves with it.

The next step is to consider what we might do with it. If we do this right, we should get a COP of 2 to 5. Since COP is energy in divided by energy out, it means that for every kilowatt-hr we put in, we can get out 2 to 5 kilowatt!

Or to look at this in BTU terms, we multiply the watts by 3.412 to get BTUs. This means that every kilowatt will give us between 6824 BTUs (1000 x 3.412 x 2) to 17060 BTU's (1000 x 3.412 x 5). This really makes this an interesting project.

So here are some possible considerations:

Hack 0:
No mods at all. Just stick it in a window and use it as it was intended to be used. After all, summer is coming on.

Hack 1:
Turn it around backwards, modify the controls a bit and use it as an air-source, window-mounted heat pump.

Hack 2:
Keep the both the air-to-air condenser coil and the air-to-air evaporator coil, but re-configure them so that they could be used in a home ventilating system, to remove heat from the stale exhaust air (using the evaporator coil), and to warm fresh, incoming air (using the condenser coil).

Hack 3:
Keep the evaporator coil but remove the condenser coil and in it's place, use a refrigerant-to-water heat exchanger. This would give us a device that would remove heat from the air (and also de-humidify the air at the same time) and put the heat into water to be used somehow. One possibility would be a water pre-heater similar to these units:

Save Energy Maine - Energy Efficient Heat Pumps. Save Money on Your Heating Bills
Airgenerate.com | Adaptive Energy Solutions
Geyser Product Overview - Energy efficient heat pump water heater from North Road Technologies

Another possibility is that we could run the water through a ground loop, which would greatly increase the efficiency of our AC unit.

Hack 4:
Keep the condenser coil but remove the evaporator coil and in it's place, use a refrigerant-to-water heat exchanger. This would give us a unit that would remove heat from a water filled ground-loop, and bring it indoors for house heat.

We could also use the water loop for a high efficiency water-jacketed refrigerator.

Hack 5:
Replace both of the air-to-air coils, instead using water-to-water. This would give us a small, cheap water-in-water-out heat pump.

For the refrigerant-to-water heat exchangers, they can get pretty expensive. However, I have found that if you shop really hard, you can get good deals on ebay:

Here:
heat exchanger, Business Industrial, eBay Motors items on eBay.com

And here:
plate heat exchanger, Home Garden, Business Industrial items on eBay.com

The size we'll need is pretty small. For instance, if we're using a 400 watt compressor, and estimate our performance to be COP=2 to COP=5, the heat exchanger's capacity will be between 2730 and 6824 BTU. If we use a 1000 watt compressor, the heat exchanger's capacity will be between 6824 and 17060 BTU.

So look hard, there are some great bargains to be had.

Later I'll show you how to make a heat exchanger, but some of these on ebay are so good and so cheap, that it may be cheaper to buy.

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Old 05-07-09, 01:24 PM   #42
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Default Post that appeared on Ecomodder...

The following post appeared on Ecomodder at this URL:

The Homemade Heat Pump Manifesto... - Page 2 - Fuel Economy, Hypermiling, EcoModding News and Forum - EcoModder.com

...I have moved it over here so as to centralize the discussion.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

cptrdbrd wrote:

Hi guys
I have looked over your thread, the threads in twister and some others. I am a commercial industrial HVAC tech for 25 years and tough it for about 10 years in the evenings. I have enjoyed watching what you and others are doing. some times I'm impressed, some times I shake my head and some times I'm just scared. I am looking to build my own Geo heat pump unit by cannibalizing my air to air HP. I have seen some comments elem ware referring to the so called secret info in this info. Please do not believe this is true, I think most techs would love to share there knowledge. the reason it seems they play there cards close to there chest is: it is a very technical field That takes a extensive back round including the laws of thermodynamics, physics, chemistry and electricity theory. this does not mean that the common man cant do what you are doing, but to make it work well and last you Need a few things under your belt. I think you guys can do very well be cos you have desire the #1 thing to synced.
I have held off interjecting be cos there is no short way to learn well the vapor compression cycle and the other things involved. I hope to make a write up that will be usefully some day. for now, till I come up with some thing I will answer your questions if you are willing to share the knowledge you have.
although I have lots of experience with water source heat pumps and water cooled units I am looking for the info for the ground source loops.
Paul

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

AC_Hacker replied:

Paul,

Welcome to the conversation.

When I started this "manifesto" thread, I had in mind that it would be a kind of 'open source project' where people could share their knowledge. So, when folks like you join in, it is very encouraging.

I'm not sure if you know that although this is where I started this project thread, it's moved over to the sister blog:
The Homemade Heat Pump Manifesto - EcoRenovator
...it was driving me crazy trying to double post and remember what was said and where.

Anyway, on the other blog (above URL) there's a ton of additional info.

And I'm figuring this thing out as I go along, so if you see things that need correcting, let's get things cleared up.

> ...I am looking for the info for the ground source loops...

The best source of info I have found is the IGSHPA book, "Closed-Loop Ground-Source Heat Pump Systems: Installation Guide". It's not cheap, and I wasn't able to find a copy that was used that was much more reasonable.

IGSHPA manuals are here:
Publications | Manuals

What I've been able to determine is that there are different ways to get the Ground Source heat. Some are cheaper than others. ranking from cheapest to most expensive goes something like this:
1) Closed Loop Pond
2) 'Open Loop' pump & dump systems where you take water out of an aquifer and dump it back to the aquifer or to a river or use it for irrigation.
3) Trench type systems using a 'slinky' arrangement or a linear pipe arrangement.
4) Closed-Loop boreholes.

Geology or lot size may make one of the choices the only choice that will work.

So, I live on a 50 x 100 city lot and don't have enough room for anything except drilling down. I can't affford to have a professional do it, so I'm trying to do it all myself.

Sizing the loop field is a matter of knowing what your building heat load is and knowing what the thermal transfer characteristic of your particular soil is. On the other blog, I set out how to test your own soil to determine what your heat transfer rate is.

Thermal Test URL:
The Homemade Heat Pump Manifesto - Page 2 - EcoRenovator
...post #18...

So, for me and my small house, I'm figuring my house's heat load to be about 12,000 BTU/hr (a Ton).

In these parts (Portland, OR) the rule of thumb is that a borehole needs to be between 175 and 225 ft deep, per 12,000 BTU/hr. When I tested it, it came out to 214.23 ft. This would mean that I would need at least 214.23 feet of borehole. More borehole is better, and also more expensive.

I have heard that around here, a 5 foot deep by 3 foot wide trench with 300 feet of slinky loops would get you about 12,000 BTU/hr.

I also found out that the material of choice for loop fields is High Density Polyethylene (AKA: HDPE). Many states are insisting that all joints be heat-fused (AKA: welded). Installers guarantee these for 50 years, but the general agreement is that they'll last a couple of hundred years, or more.

Here's product information from a typical HDPE pipe provider:
http://www.superlon.com/supertherm.pdf

There are also considerations of providing flow turbulence, to improve heat transfer. The IGSHPA manual covers this.

Here's a link to a brief blog discussion on the subject of flow rates:
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.c...227114&page=10

PVC pipe is not recommended because it gets brittle with age. I have read, however, that the first GSHP developments did use PVC. I don't know if all of the PVC installations failed, in fact, I don't know if any of them failed.

I have also heard stories about how "a neighbor buried garden hose in the back yard to heat his house". I have no way to verify the information as to whether this will actually work.

I do recommend experimenting.

I also recommend being aware of standard methods, if for no other reason than it can suggest a starting point.

Here's Washington state's standard:
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.a...te=173-160-453

Here's from Lancaner county Pennsylvania:
http://www.co.lancaster.pa.us/Planni...p?A=2&Q=268236

Also try using this serch string in Google (remove %):
+"Ground Source" +"minimum standards for construction"

http://www.google.com/search?q=Groun...=Google+Search



Does this help?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

And I do have a question for you:

I have this little 400 watt compressor, and I'm trying to size a pair of flat plate heat exchangers for it. By my reckoning, it will move about 1600 watts (about 5500 BTU/hr), steady state. I'll be pumping water in at maybe 47 degrees into it on the Ground Source side, and I'll want in the neighborhood of 5000 BTU/hr out on the hydronic floor side. I figure I'll run R-22 or similar refrigerant. I'm not trying to heat my whole house, just a room that needed about 4000 BTU/hr on the very worst day last winter.

I threw one together last summer and it worked pretty well, but I'd prefer to have a better idea of what I'm doing.

Do you have charts or sizing programs that you like to use?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
NOTE: While waiting for a reply, I found what appears to be a pretty good brazed plate selection program. Found here:
GEA PHE Systems North America
...choose the "Refrigeration Heat Exchangers" option.

The specifications for ebay-available brazed plates is pretty much non-existent. There is some vague mention of BTU transfer for solar-heating.

Problem is that refrigerants have a very different specific heat, compared to water. So I Thrashed around through several brazed plate selection guides and found that for refrigeration purposes, both evaporation and condensing, heat-transfer seems to work out to about 5000 BTU/square-foot for small exchangers.

So the formula might look something like:

Heat = ((width) x (length) x (# of plates - 2)) x 5000

...where width & length are expressed in feet, and heat is in BTU/hr.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Best Regards,

-AC_Hacker

Last edited by AC_Hacker; 12-24-10 at 01:20 PM..
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Old 05-07-09, 02:17 PM   #43
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Info galore! Keep it coming AC Hacker.
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Old 05-07-09, 03:35 PM   #44
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Default Of Bumble Bees and Heat Exchangers...

I've been thinking about what Paul said in the above post, and I have come to the conclusion that he is quite correct in saying that refrigeration design is very complex. As he said, it calls for "extensive back ground including the laws of thermodynamics, physics, chemistry and electricity theory".

He is quite right. But if we start with an already-designed unit and utilize as much of the previous design work for our 'modified' purposes, I think we can still get some very useful work done.


My dad used to tell me the story of the Bumble Bee... that aeronautical engineers had carefully studied that creature and had concluded that because of many factors, especially the weight to wing-area ratio, the Bumble Bee is incapable of flight. But the Bumble Bee didn't know this and he flew anyway!

So, I think that we're all a bit like that Bumble Bee...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >

I've been seriously scouring the Internet for information on selecting a brazed plate heat exchanger for hacking purposes.

I have learned that brazed plate heat exchangers were designed by the Germans, and are being made by several companies, of essentially the same materials, and have essentially the same performance.

So I was able to dig up a selection program here:

http://www.flatplate.com/downloads/f...ateSELECTw.exe

...this one doesn't seem to be supported anymore, but it is for the same product line as the newer one. This one is down-loadable, which I like because you can try various scenarios quickly. Also note that this program has been picked up by Internet Archive "wayback Machine"(www.archive.org), so it should be available for a long time.

The newer one is available here:

Login

...you'll need to register for this one, but there doesn't seem to be any 'fact checking' in the registration.

I have also Googled my tail off hunting down <"brazed plate" refrigeration selection> documents, of which I found quite a few. Mind you, that when you are seeking this information you need to look for info for "refrigeration" and not water-to-water.

Here are a few documents:

http://www.eptec.no/images/Marketing...20NA08583B.pdf

http://www.flatplate.com/pdf/refrig/Cbrochure7-98.pdf

...this should get you pretty close to the size you want to use.

I noticed that the selection program seemed to be selecting larger heat exchangers than the product literature suggested.

Since the product literature came closer to my experience so far, I prefer it.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

So we need to get used to the idea that we can think in terms of BTU/hr and also watts.

For instance, to convert 1000 watts to BTU/hr, we multiply by 3.412:

1000 x 3.412 = 3412 BTU/hr

To convert 8000 BTU/hr to watts, divide by 3.412:

8000 / 3.412 = 2345 watts

So for instance, if you have a compressor that draws about 800 watts, as measured by a watt meter (kill-a-watt), you don't choose a heat exchanger that has an 800 watt capacity (2729.6 BTU/hr). Instead you look at how much heat it can move, which can be 5 times the watts it draws. (Amazing, yes?)

So for instance:

800 x 3.412 x 5 = 13648 BTU/hr

If you are looking on ebay for an exchanger, they almost always give you heat transfer numbers that are either for water-to-water purposes like solar or hydronic use, or else they are completely 'plucked from the sky'.

My advice is to really study the brazed-plate refrigeration selection charts, as many as you can find.

I did that, and noted what the brazed-plate refrigeration heat transfer was for several sizes of product from several manufacturers. Then I came up with a figure for the heat transfer divided by the total area of the various units. I came up with different numbers, but they were in the range of 5000 BTU/square foot.

You should do your own research on this since it's your money you're going to spend.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

So, having done all that, I came up with a small brazed plate unit that is about 7.5 inches by 2.88 inches by 10 plates thick.


From my previous post:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So the formula might look something like:

Heat = ((width) x (length) x (# of plates - 2)) x 5000

...where width & length are expressed in feet
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

width = 2.88 inches = 0.24 ft
length = 7.5 inches = 0.625 ft

so:

Heat (exchanger) = (0.24) x (0.625) x (10 -2) x 5000 = 1.25 x 5000 = 6000 BTU/hr

Next, I'll check to see what my compressor can move by calculating the heat I anticipate that I will be able to move with my compressor:

Watts I measured when I ran my compressor = 380

COP I can expect = 5

Heat (compressor) = (380) x (3.412) x (5) = 6482.8 BTU/hr

CONCLUSION: According to these calculations, the compressor can move more heat that my heat exchanger can. Normally this is NOT such a good situation. In most cases, I would prefer that my exchangers exceed my compressor, for greatest efficiency. However, I built a heat exchanger last summer with exchangers that were twice the size I am now using, with a compressor that was just about equal in size to this 380 watt unit. I ran great, but I never knew if my guesswork put me right on the edge of good performance, or if I had a wide margin or a very wide margin. So I've decided to go ahead and build this unit to see if my performance is reduced somewhat.

So, I'm fact-checking my calculations

Can't wait to start cutting & brazing...

Best Regards,

-AC_Hacker
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Old 05-18-09, 08:59 PM   #45
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sory I have not ben able to reply, but I have ben having problums with my lap to. I find United Referageration is a great source of info.when I have things I want to find out I go to there catalog wich is availible on line, disk or as a book. lots of great info, another great refrence is is the Modern Refergeration text book, you will find one on most service trucks stufed behind the seat. I did not check but probbly availible on ebay cheep. as for your quesgin I do not quite understand what you are asking.
why are you guyes messing arround with plate heat exchangers, I dont care for them. thay hold dirt and crud. I all ways profer tube in tube or tube in shell. the only advantage to plate is cost.
I have ben working on a guide fo the average person, but time is a rare comidity. I will keep working on it and will make it availible as soon as I can.
Paul
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Old 06-02-09, 07:51 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AC_Hacker View Post
The best source of info I have found is the IGSHPA book, "Closed-Loop Ground-Source Heat Pump Systems: Installation Guide". It's not cheap, and I wasn't able to find a copy that was used that was much more reasonable.
I just had the opportunity to be in a Ground Source Installers class (the engineer who oversaw our project was the teacher), and I was able to borrow the "Installation Guide" since it was the main textbook for the class. I haven't given it back yet, so if you want me to look up anything let me know. I voice recorded the class as well, so if there's anything from that you're interested in I can try to find it. I'd post a transcript, but it's more than 2 full days of teaching (3 days total, minus installer test, and fusion hands on and tests), and I don't type all that fast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC_Hacker View Post
What I've been able to determine is that there are different ways to get the Ground Source heat. Some are cheaper than others. ranking from cheapest to most expensive goes something like this:
1) Closed Loop Pond
2) 'Open Loop' pump & dump systems where you take water out of an aquifer and dump it back to the aquifer or to a river or use it for irrigation.
3) Trench type systems using a 'slinky' arrangement or a linear pipe arrangement.
4) Closed-Loop boreholes.
I'd never really liked the pump & dump idea before, seemed like it had the potential to be a waste of good drinking water. In the class he mentioned (I don't recall if it was per ton, or for a regular house (3-5 tons)) per year a pump and dump will use well over a million gallons of water!!!!

One generalization was for X feet of borehole, a horizontal trench system will use 3X feet of pipe. (need to take another look at that: did they mean feet of borehole or feet of pipe in borehole (ie 2X: down & up)). In the IGSHPA book there are examples of multiple pipes in horizontal trenches: you need more pipe overall (vs 1 pipe per trench), but less trench total. (though it's not double the pipe half the trench length--since the 2 pipes close together interact)


Quote:
Originally Posted by AC_Hacker View Post
Sizing the loop field is a matter of knowing what your building heat load is and knowing what the thermal transfer characteristic of your particular soil is. On the other blog, I set out how to test your own soil to determine what your heat transfer rate is.
Per the class, determining the building heat load is the first and most important step, because everything else hinges off of that: the inside units and the size/configuration of the outside pipe. Too little outside pipe and the water temperature won't stay stable, too much and you've overspent on boreholes and pipe.

Interestingly, while heat transfer plays a big role, since a "proper" test costs around $5000 (though that can be rolled into the install since there'd already be that borehole dug), it's not normally done for installs under 25 tons or so. Instead, they assume ".9" (mid to lower end, I think) for the calculations.

The other main issue, is grouting the boreholes after the pipe is placed: this helps couple the pipe with the ground to get the best heat transfer, as well as prevents aquifers from being contaminated by ground or close to the surface water.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC_Hacker View Post
Here's Washington state's standard:
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.a...te=173-160-453

Here's from Lancaner county Pennsylvania:
http://www.co.lancaster.pa.us/planni...p?a=3&Q=268236
Links are dead for me: they go to error pages.


Oh, and I have some pictures of the install I was working on, if anyone is interested.

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Old 06-02-09, 08:38 AM   #47
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Oooh, yes. Please post pics.
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Old 06-02-09, 12:02 PM   #48
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HJB,

Lucky guy that you got to take the class!

If you have the ability to compress the audio files into MP3's, I'd be very interested to hear them.

Sorry about the dead links. Somehow the blog program replaced parts of the URL with 'elipses' ( ... ). I went back and re-inserted the whole URL and tested it to verify that it worked, and also put in the Google search terms I used and also put THAT search URL into the page, and tested it to assure that it worked.

I also located a PDF that had a list of European Union standards if anyone wants to carry the standards reasearch further:

http://www.egec.org/target/Sanner%20...0Standards.pdf
> One generalization was for X feet of borehole, a horizontal trench
> system will use 3X feet of pipe. (need to take another look at that:
> did they mean feet of borehole or feet of pipe in borehole
> (ie 2X: down & up)).
In this area (Portland, Oregon) the rule of thumb is 200 feet of borehole for one Ton of AC (12,000 BTU) or for horizontal trench w/ slinky, 100 ft of trench and 300 feet of slinky per Ton.

I ditto Daox, I'd really like to see the pictures also.

Best Regards,

AC_Hacker
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Old 06-03-09, 12:09 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AC_Hacker View Post
If you have the ability to compress the audio files into MP3's, I'd be very interested to hear them.
Where would I post such a monster? About a year ago I recall I tried to compress around an hour of speech: even mono @ 30 or 40 kbps mp3, the smallest I could make it, the file was probably 15-20 megs. I remember cause I had to sign up for a file transfer thing, it was too big to email. That was only about an hour's worth, and this is probably 16 hours! Is there somewhere on EcoRenovator I could post it? I can edit it and chop it up into whatever size files are needed, but I'm not sure where it could be hosted so everyone can get at it; and even with lots of editing, when it goes to mp3 I'm sure it will total at least 150megs, so thats a good bit of bandwidth. Also, it will probably take me a good long while to edit and compress all that, so don't expect it to be posted tomorrow even if there is a good place to host it.

PICTURES!
I gotta get a digital camara and get pictures inside of the building. Someone else took all these, partially with the intention of being able to locate the pipe later, so alot of them are different than what I would have taken. However, of the 299 pictures, theres gotta be some good ones, so here we go:

Here's the only angle where you can get the whole wellfield in one shot. The houses in the background have almost no backyard, the wellfield runs up to the road which is just this side of the fence.


Just for a sense of scale: The trenches on the left half each have 13-14 wells at 20' spacing, and the ones on the right end have 6-7. The trenches are about 17' apart.

Closer overview of the field in 4 parts:









To be continued...

Last edited by Hugh Jim Bissel; 06-03-09 at 07:51 AM.. Reason: more thoughts on mp3s
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Old 06-03-09, 12:37 AM   #50
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But I've gotten ahead of myself. That was well into the process. First came the drilling: 250' down.


Then the grouting (we were bad and poured ours. Proper way is to drop a hose to the bottom and pump it in from the bottom up.)


We had 4 mixers full per borehole, each mixer load was two bags of grout and 10 bags of silica sand. Each bag weighed 50 pounds, so we let the equipment do the lifting.


Overview of the drilling/grouting. The corner of the building being converted is visible to the left, just above the skidsteer.


More to follow...

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