water well pipe and geothermal potential

[ledbalon]

410a was just coming online

[AC_Hacker]

Originally Posted by ledbalon

410a was just coming online

OK, that explains a lot.

There has been quite a lot of progress in the state of the art since then.

The new Mini-splits from Asia are quite advanced now.

You might want to look into a couple of them, Mitsubishi's Mr Slim is one and the Fujitsu Halcyon is another. Both pretty good. Xringer has a Sanyo that is a couple of years old, mine (also Sanyo) is maybe a year older than his, they've both been by-passed by new developments.

The developments have been in greater efficiency (COP) and also their ability to efficiently extract heat from colder air.

Most of the regular folks on this blog are pretty up to speed with the latest technology.

For your information, the current crop of ASHP is just about as efficient as prior technology GSHP.

For some reason, there has been quite a delay in applying the new technology to GSHPs, which will surely push them well out in front, efficiency-wise.

It is an efficiency race that we can all benefit from.

American designed equipment is just not keeping up with developments from Asia. They have a huge advantage with good engineering talent, steadily developing better equipment.

We're simply falling behind.

The energy situation is also changing pretty fast. The link I posted before is reliable.

-AC

[ledbalon]

pretty amazing what they are doing with the inverter run dc compressors.. can slow them down and let them chug along as super slow speed .. but they are small units.. hard pressed to find ones over 3 tons. Most being 1 -2 ton units.. some having multiple evap cores.

Think part of the reason that we have not seen applications coming from domestic producers.. is that they have not been pushed .. mini splits are still not common here.. to many ding bat installers afraid to mess with them.. What part of simple and easier to install ??? I have not really figured that one out..

Yes I see lots of ashp with seer around 17 and cop right up there between 2 and 3.

My bottom line is conservation is still a much better solution than running the watt meter on the side of the house.

[AC_Hacker]

Originally Posted by ledbalon

Think part of the reason that we have not seen applications coming from domestic producers.. is that they have not been pushed .. mini splits are still not common here.. to many ding bat installers afraid to mess with them.. What part of simple and easier to install ??? I have not really figured that one out.

Mini-Splits are solutions designed by Asia for the Asian market. Smaller homes and energy at least twice the price.

Also we graduate 70,000 engineers per year and half of them are working on war-related projects. So, 35,000 are available for problems affecting the civilian sector.

India graduates 350,000 engineers per year and China graduates 600,000 per year.

We are out-gunned 27 to 1

Do you still think our problem is ding bat installers?

Originally Posted by ledbalon

Yes I see lots of ashp with seer around 17 and cop right up there between 2 and 3.

The Fujitsu Halcion has a COP of 3.5

Originally Posted by ledbalon

My bottom line is conservation is still a much better solution than running the watt meter on the side of the house.

Much better.

-AC

[MN Renovator]

Think part of the reason that we have not seen applications coming from domestic producers.. is that they have not been pushed .. mini splits are still not common here.. to many ding bat installers afraid to mess with them.. What part of simple and easier to install ??? I have not really figured that one out..

We still have installers all over the place who will connect a tank to an A/C unit turn it on and load it with their hand over around the suction line. I think the major issue is that in order to make decent profit they can't install a mini-split and have the customer happy. Often people don't know, at least up north that a heat pump even exists. I've tried to mention it to some people and they go, "wait an air conditioner running backwards? you are an idiot"

For mini-splits, I always get a 'why would I want something on my wall', or 'wait it costs over a grand for just the unit and so I'd have to get a bunch?'

It's not necessarily cheaper or easier to install when a house has ductwork and they connect it to one point in a furnace. In my house, I'm lucky by design, the occupied bedroom and space used for office type stuff is upstairs and the warm air seems to share well with the level below so I could heat my bedroom and the heat stays upstairs and circulates well and its a little cooler down a level but convection does magic while I can leave the downstairs cooler. In the summer, the heat rises so I can cool the upstairs and the whole house gets the benefit. House design makes a difference.

Yes I see lots of ashp with seer around 17 and cop right up there between 2 and 3.

You could check out the Carrier Greenspeed system, central heat pump system that gets 20 SEER and 13HSPF and does a great job of producing heating down to very cold temperatures.

"My bottom line is conservation is still a much better solution than running the watt meter on the side of the house."

Not sure what you are trying to say here because to me conservation has three parts. Using less, including using a temperature that demands less, energy efficient equipment, and energy efficient design.

I've got some old equipment in my house that is far from energy star apart from my computer equipment. I've got a refrigerator that chews power and minimum efficiency nat. gas furnace and air conditioner.

Yearly natural gas is under $300 and electricity under $400, 36% of that are fixed fees like connection fees and city fees to have the service, the rest is usage. By August my trailing energy usage subtracting the fixed fees will be under $400 for electricity and natural gas combined. My $100 energy audit and using this website already paid itself off in sealing up the place.

pretty amazing what they are doing with the inverter run dc compressors.. can slow them down and let them chug along as super slow speed .. but they are small units.. hard pressed to find ones over 3 tons. Most being 1 -2 ton units.. some having multiple evap cores.

Not quite true. There are larger efficient ones. Toshiba RAV-SP420AT2-UL can cool and heat at 4 tons. 11HSPF and 18.8 SEER. 28600 output at 17f 44500 at 47f

The problem with this is that its not designed for ductwork so you would need to have somewhere to put that BTU output and would either need to run your furnace blower or a bunch of fans in your house and blow your COP or have a very open floor plan.

[Xringer]

Originally Posted by ledbalon

Think part of the reason that we have not seen applications coming from domestic producers.. is that they have not been pushed .. mini splits are still not common here.. to many ding bat installers afraid to mess with them.. What part of simple and easier to install ??? I have not really figured that one out.. .

I've seen a few installations (and a bunch on youtube) that didn't really
take much labor at all.

I've heard from a few people that were turned off mini-splits because
they researched them on the web and saw the prices and the amount
of labor needed for a standard install.

Once they got their estimate, and saw the labor cost, they lost interest real fast.
'How could labor cost more than the hardware'?

Maybe if the tripled the cost of the units?? Then the labor cost wouldn't seem so bad.?.