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Old 10-25-11, 08:40 PM   #101
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I hate to be the one to break this to you, but that is where they all are from now.

-AC_Hacker
That's not news to me. I meant the difference between a Fujitsu, Mitsubishi, Sanyo, etc. versus the not very well known but cheap names like YMGI, Grunair, AirCon, etc. I meant to have emphasis on the word cheaper.

What I meant to say is that I wouldn't want to buy a Fujitsu 12RLS and pay over a grand and then add more cost and effort to it than I'd expect to get back by replacing the refrigerant. Now if I made a big mistake on one of these pricier units or felt like experimenting on a cheaper one and had the cash to play around, I'd go for it.

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Old 10-25-11, 10:26 PM   #102
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How can anyone find that out?

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Maybe by reading boring government studies,
http://www.fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/bu...PDF/b99041.pdf

Or not..
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Old 10-26-11, 02:11 AM   #103
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Maybe by reading boring government studies...Or not.
And you conclusion, regarding using R-290 for ASHP use in Norway?

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Old 10-26-11, 08:01 AM   #104
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I'm not ready to point to anything definitive. But, I will say this,
the last time I was in Norge, it was in the springtime, but I got
the impression that AC wasn't something most people used.

I did a search and found the small B&Bs don't have AC, only the larger hotels.
So, my guess is, those Norwegian propane studies most likely pertain to heating.

http://www.protect-the-arctic.com/wp...circle-map.jpg

More stuff..

http://www.hydrocarbons21.com/conten...7320110812.php

Last edited by Xringer; 10-26-11 at 09:29 AM..
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Old 10-27-11, 03:54 PM   #105
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As a native Norwegian I can assure you, that whatever we have in the way of AC is either large office buildings, hotels, or as a bonus when you buy a ASHP for heating. Our average temperature in summer is never touching uncomfortable. I even put it in english for you guys: Weather statistics for Solfjellveien, R°yken (Buskerud)
On the other hand, we do have more laws than lawyers. In all honesty, we do not have very many of them either, we are only <5 million people, but my point of having a lot of laws is still valid, and propane in a heat pump is possibly not something that the government approves of. Obviously, some people don't care, the next sentence/question should reveal which category I am in.
When I fill my HP with propane, do I have to use a special cleaned version, or can I just use the one I get cheaply for BBQ and such? That one contains both moisture and butane, is that right? Will it do any damage? I will be brazing together everything soon, and I need a refrigerant to fill the system with.
Also, I have this dehumidifier. Any idea how I use it, and if it will handle all the humidity in the cheap propane?
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Old 10-27-11, 04:34 PM   #106
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Hello Ko deZ,
Thanks for the info. That temperature plot makes our local temps look Bermuda like.
About 4 months when it hardly ever gets above freezing?? Wow!

You are asking the same questions, as others (and myself) have been asking.

I was warned not to use BBQ gas. It need to be filtered and dried out.
Otherwise, the impurities are going to shorten the life of the heat pump.

One R290 user, claims that using 2 filter-dryers worked well for him.

I would like to try some Red Tek 12a, if it's not too costly. Maybe on Ebay?
RED TEK - 12a Refrigerant

If I'm forced to use BBQ gas, I'll use some good filtering on the system.

When I installed my second Sanyo, I used a filter for a couple of hours,
just to clean out the R410A.. Just in case the oil was acidity.
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothe...html#post16688




I have found out that using CO2 to purge the line when brazing works like nitrogen.
(Since brazing leaves a lot of residue inside the line, if you don't purge it).

Check out my repair project..
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothe...r-project.html

Cheers,
Rich
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Old 10-27-11, 04:40 PM   #107
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When I fill my HP with propane, do I have to use a special cleaned version, or can I just use the one I get cheaply for BBQ and such? That one contains both moisture and butane, is that right? Will it do any damage? I will be brazing together everything soon, and I need a refrigerant to fill the system with.
Ko_deZ,

I used cooking gas (propane) in my prototype system, which I built to see if I could build a working heat pump. It worked better than I would have imagined.

If you search around, regarding what the 'extra' components are of cooking gas, it probably varies from country to country.

What I found out about local propane is that its purity may vary from 65% to 95%, it will have some moisture in it and the substance that gives it a 'rotton-egg' smell contains sulfur. It will also have some percentage of iso-butane, which is better for cooling, and worse for heating in a heat pump.

The water + sulfur can combine to form sulfuric acid which is not good.

Another poster has reported that he uses this cooking gas in his system successfully, but uses two in-line dryers in series to remove the water, and he claims it removes sulfur also... I have my doubts.

There are a lot of people who use cooking gas to build CPU chilling machines, but in that case the issue of reliability is not as crucial as keeping a home in Norway warm through the winter.

I have decided to use a commercial R-22 organic replacement refrigerant which looks to be super-refined, dry, pure propane with a non-sulphuric scent agent.

In this post is some work done by Aquario, who is living in Spain, and found some kind of organic refrigerant that is apparently available in Europe.

I think that this is the best way to go.

Be sure to understand all relevant safety procedures before you begin.

I have a unit I am building, it is ready for final assembly and then charging.

The company that makes the organic refrigerant I will use is called Enviro-Safe.

The refrigerant is called R-22a.

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Also, I have this dehumidifier. Any idea how I use it, and if it will handle all the humidity in the cheap propane?
Can you explain what you mean exactly when you say 'de-humidifier'?

Do you mean a machine, or a dryer-filter kind of thing?

-AC_Hacker
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Old 10-27-11, 04:47 PM   #108
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Thanks for your replies.

The "dehumidifier" is a filter that is in series with the gas flow. Maybe I should just drop that and go for the clean propane option. Now all I have to do is find someone local that sells this stuff. I know that shipping pressurized flammable gas is not something the freight companies love, so ebay-ing it is out of the question.
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Old 10-27-11, 05:47 PM   #109
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How far away is Szatymaz, Hungary??

eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices

They ship to Norway..
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Old 10-27-11, 05:48 PM   #110
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Thanks for your replies.

The "dehumidifier" is a filter that is in series with the gas flow. Maybe I should just drop that and go for the clean propane option. Now all I have to do is find someone local that sells this stuff. I know that shipping pressurized flammable gas is not something the freight companies love, so ebay-ing it is out of the question.
So, the terminology used here is "refrigerant grade" also "laboratory grade".

The R-22 organic replacement is implicitly refrigeration grade.

This page spells out purity specifications, and also this page has documents that spell out safety precautions, etc.

I think that you just need to find the local name for the organic R-22 replacement refrigerant.

BTW, I was never able to get a response from the Chinese Brazed Plate company.

-AC_Hacker

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