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Old 12-18-13, 10:48 AM   #31
Student 07
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Default Northwest heat pumps

Hi Nonhog,
I can tell you about my experience with heat pumps in the NW. The Geothermal is great for the guys in the mid west and back east where the temperature is colder than their ground temperature for 6 months out of the year. Here in the NW with our moderate temps ( a week or two below 30* isn't cold) an Air Source Heat Pump is an economical and competitive alternative.
The new Heat pumps use R410a which is able to collect heat at very low temps (if I remember right less than 0*). Here on the west side of the Cascades there is usually only a couple weeks where we are below freezing. So, the rest of the time the HP is working very efficiently.
Heat pumps produce low heat, the old school heat pumps (air to air) used to blow "warm" air when compared to a NG furnace's hot air. People complained that Heat pumps didn't produce enough heat.
I was able to get around this "problem" in a couple ways. First I installed an air/ water HP (Daiken Altherma), water stores energy, so the low heat accumulates. Second, I only need low heat for the radiant floors. With HPs the less heat they have to produce, the more efficient they are.
I used to use Propane also, so I know what you're going through. Since their not regulated they can charge whatever they can get away with. My Heat pump is almost 500% efficient, it cut my energy costs to 1/3 of what it was with propane.
Most heat pumps use a 100% electrical "backup" in case it gets really cold. Straight electricity is still cheaper than most propane setups in our area ($0.11 kWh and $3+ gl propane). I would recommend you keep it simple and use the Heat pump alone, in our climate your "backup" heat source will never kick on anyway. Setting up the controls for a "Dual heat source" system can get involved and is a difficult DIY project.
I know you're not set up for hydronic heating. Your application sounds ideal for a couple mini splits, I am sure you will have no regrets. One thing I want to mention is that there is no silver bullet that works best for everybody everywhere, to be efficient you have to take advantage of what you have, whether it is solar energy or a mild climate. Good luck with your project, and let us know how it turned out.

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Old 12-18-13, 11:08 AM   #32
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Thanks for all the responces! I just added Propane @ $3.00/gallon. was under $2.00
in August. I pulled money from my retirement and plan to get going on a re-heat.
My head is still spinning on which way to go. I have an electrician friend who has a HVAC friend.....yada yada... hope to see how willing he might be to do some consultation/help with install. I can do most if not all. Maybe he has a line on systems
cheap? He helped my buddy which by no means does that mean I'll get the same.
We'll see.
I'll update when I have news! Keep the thoughts coming!
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Old 12-18-13, 12:09 PM   #33
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Not to scale but you can see how just about everything will be a compromise. 15X15 atrium is really in the way.
If I'm thinking right I might need 3 mini split systems?
One in front room and one in living room and a third in the atrium.
Which has 20' tall ceiling (glass) get real cold in winter and real hot in summer. The sliding glass doors do a pretty good job of sealing up the rest of the house.

If I do mini splits I'd probably better add cadet style heaters to each bedroom.

Love the mini split idea but in this house I wonder if just making the Propane system a hybrid would be best. Plus a mini in the atrium. Which may never be a well conditioned area but better Is acceptable.

Oy vey!
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Old 12-18-13, 01:46 PM   #34
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Quote:
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...Not to scale but you can see how just about everything will be a compromise. 15X15 atrium is really in the way...

Nonhog,

I'd give anything to have a layout like you have.

I totally understand your dissatisfaction with the 'atrium'... you are just not "Nonhog of the Jungle".

If I had it, I would remove all the glass roof and put in the best insulation I possibly could, but I would keep a smallish opening skylight at the peak, to dump heat in the summertime.

Your atrium should be re-purposed into a 'Core Room', that was well insulated in the walls, roof & floor... but leave a few high R-value windows that could open into the rest of the house. I would retreat to the core room in the winter evenings and in the peak heat days of summer, closing the windows when I did so.

It would leak heat (or cool), but it would leak heat (or cool) into the rest of your house.

You could turn a pain-in-the-Nonhog into a real asset.

I also love the way that the furnace was placed in the garage, making it possible to lose the maximum possible amount of heat... just GREAT!

-AC
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Old 12-18-13, 02:13 PM   #35
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dissatisfaction with the 'atrium'...


If I had it, I would remove all the glass roof and put in the best insulation I possibly could, but I would keep a smallish opening skylight at the peak, to dump heat in the summertime.

Your atrium should be re-purposed into a 'Core Room', that was well insulated in the walls, roof & floor... but leave a few high R-value windows that could open into the rest of the house. I would retreat to the core room in the winter evenings and in the peak heat days of summer, closing the windows when I did so.

It would leak heat (or cool), but it would leak heat (or cool) into the rest of your house.

You could turn a pain-in-the-Nonhog into a real asset.

I also love the way that the furnace was placed in the garage, making it possible to lose the maximum possible amount of heat... just GREAT!

-AC
I actually like the atrium. It use to have a hot tub. after the 3rd year we took it out. Do miss it from time to time.
Seeing the moon from inside the house is a real treat.
We talked about roofing and insulating the atrium room but my wife would not have it. We are surrounded by tall fir tree's. She wants all the light coming in she can get.
Gets worse! She wants to open the kitchen into the atrium which w/o the tall ceiling and glass is not a bad idea.
With that area open it could be a real chore to keep the house at a reasonable temp. I am thinking some sort of doors to close off atrium from kitchen when we need to heat or cool? So much to consider............sigh!
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Old 12-18-13, 03:15 PM   #36
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...Gets worse!
You've become a slave to your atrium.

-AC
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Old 12-18-13, 03:32 PM   #37
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You've become a slave to your atrium.

-AC
No! wrong! I'm a slave to my wife.
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Old 01-28-14, 05:36 PM   #38
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We spoke with a installer at the Homeshow and told him up front I'm a DIY
He still spent more time than all 3 previous co. combined. Offered to sell systems and do some or none of the install.
I'd gladly support a local guy and spent a little (see about that right?) more.
I will give him the chance for a sell.



New question 2 parts:
one, quality of heat? Heat pump using exsiting ducts or mini splits?
two, cost of use?

Thanks for all the help!
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Old 01-28-14, 05:46 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonhog View Post
New question 2 parts:
quality of heat?
It's better.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonhog View Post
New question 2 parts:
Heat pump using exsiting ducts or mini splits?
Yes, they are available both ways.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonhog View Post
New question 2 parts:
cost of use?
It's cheaper.


Best,

-AC
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Old 01-28-14, 05:46 PM   #40
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I have high efficiency inverter mini splits. The heat is very good and conformable. The inverter run almost all the time and just ramps and down the compressor. This keeps away the big temp swings.
I am sold on this technology.


https://www.acwholesalers.com/Panaso...00-30.50|LAST#
select the condenser
Then select Resources this will tell you how much power they will use.

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