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Old 09-06-11, 11:50 PM   #1
kbhale
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Default wind lens

I thought this interesting.

Japanese Innovation Makes Wind Power Cheaper Than Nuclear | Geekosystem

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Old 09-07-11, 05:44 AM   #2
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Yes i also think this is interesting. Thanks for the link which is shared lots of information.
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Old 09-07-11, 04:36 PM   #3
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But wind power is already cheaper, nuclear takes 35 years to pay for the cost of building the power plant, coal is 20 years, wind is 4 to 7 years.
Trouble is, wind has to be on hill tops where people see it, then they whine about how ugly it is and how each wind turbine kills a bird or two a year, ignoring how much wild life nuclear and coal kills, or the long term health affects they both have on people.

Also, the idea of putting a faring around the blades is not a new idea either, the issue is that you now have a lot of mass around the blades to move, cost goes up and you have to ask your self at that point if just making the blades a little longer would just be better, and it often is.

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Old 09-07-11, 10:54 PM   #4
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That lab demo unit was only producing 18w.. It seems like it should have been more..


I like the design, but I wonder if it can really get that 3x power when done on a large scale.

I can see how the flared rim produces a low pressure bubble downwind of the blades,
but if the blades were real long, the turbulence might just form a thin doughnut
of low pressure, with normal air pressure in the center of the output flow path.

And, will extra strong winds push the bubble so far downwind that it's
not going to help as much..

Can't wait to see these on Ebay..
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Old 09-08-11, 08:55 AM   #5
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When you increase your collector size your output is going to go up! I was just looking at a chart in Home Power magazine on the power output of a number of wind turbines and if you make the blades two feet longer (and size the generator to handle the increase), I compared to turbines of the same company, Proven and with an 8.4' rotor and a 12mph wind (decent, average wind speed) you see an annual output of 1,488kwh bump it up to an 11.1' rotor at the same wind speed and you see an annual output of 5,004kwh per year.

The "wind lens" just increases the collection area, just like adding reflectors to solar.
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Old 09-08-11, 04:04 PM   #6
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Is wind power cheaper ? In the Uk and probably elsewhere it receives huge subsidies so comparing lifetime prices is difficult. One thing is for sure as commercial wind turbines of the Hawt design get bigger the cost per unit of electricity generated goes up !! At least that appears to be true in the UK. Also wind power can never do more than provide a top end power over a nuclear or fossil fuel base load. I don't think that we'd accept as base load a generating system that produces nothing on the many, many calm ( or very stormy days.
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Old 09-08-11, 04:43 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryland View Post
When you increase your collector size your output is going to go up! I was just looking at a chart in Home Power magazine on the power output of a number of wind turbines and if you make the blades two feet longer (and size the generator to handle the increase), I compared to turbines of the same company, Proven and with an 8.4' rotor and a 12mph wind (decent, average wind speed) you see an annual output of 1,488kwh bump it up to an 11.1' rotor at the same wind speed and you see an annual output of 5,004kwh per year.

The "wind lens" just increases the collection area, just like adding reflectors to solar.
I don't think it's increasing the frontal area of the blade swing area,
but it's using the wing lift principle to generate low pressure behind the blades.

This one seems like the same principle being used, but it's much more exaggerated.
WindTamer at Suny Geneseo | WindTamerTurbines.com - YouTube

I'll bet the smaller Japanese wing rim works better.. At least it's simple compared to the megaphone thing..
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Old 09-08-11, 04:58 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Al View Post
Is wind power cheaper ? In the Uk and probably elsewhere it receives huge subsidies so comparing lifetime prices is difficult. One thing is for sure as commercial wind turbines of the Hawt design get bigger the cost per unit of electricity generated goes up !! At least that appears to be true in the UK. Also wind power can never do more than provide a top end power over a nuclear or fossil fuel base load. I don't think that we'd accept as base load a generating system that produces nothing on the many, many calm ( or very stormy days.
I think much of the taxpayer money 'invested' in wind power is wasted,
because many of the companies are in the wind business, ONLY because they
hope to get a big wad of taxpayers cash.
These companies are taking the short-term view. They plan to shut
their doors and move on, as soon as the government stops overpaying them.

Some Eco 'investments' are just pay-offs to friends, or part of a money laundering scheme..
Maybe this one..
Solyndra | White House Visits | Bankruptcy | The Daily Caller

My guess is, many of the wind power customers in America are going
to feel like they have been scammed, sooner or later..



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Old 09-09-11, 09:48 AM   #9
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Quote:
I don't think it's increasing the frontal area of the blade swing area,
but it's using the wing lift principle to generate low pressure behind the blades.
No, you are not increasing the blade swing, you are increasing the collection area, by increasing the pressure at the front and decreasing the pressure behind and while it's not increasing the blade swing, it is increasing the frontal area, thus increasing the area that wind is being collected from.
Any time you keep the air from spilling over the tips of the blades you are going to increase the output, you can do this with a stationary rim, or you can do this with winglets on the tips of the blades.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Al View Post
Is wind power cheaper ? In the Uk and probably elsewhere it receives huge subsidies so comparing lifetime prices is difficult.
The 4 to 7 year pay back I mentioned is before any subsidies, there are alot of wind farms that have been put up without any tax dollars and they are making a profit, one such wind farm is in Oregon on the coast and is creating enough power and paying enough in taxes that they are creating a tax surplus.
There are a lot of other examples of schools (because they often have a large enough chunk of land) putting up wind turbines to at first off set their electrical use but are finding that they are seeing a positive cash flow.
Also, when there are subsidies, they are in the form of rebates to help offset the costs of installing, to make it a more appealing long term investment because it's going to have a quicker pay back, but if it's managed you will also have a long term sustained pay back because it will be like buying an oil well that doesn't run dry, but even oil wells need to be maintained.


Quote:
One thing is for sure as commercial wind turbines of the Hawt design get bigger the cost per unit of electricity generated goes up !!
Where are you getting this from? if you look at the installed cost and the output, the large you go the cheaper the electricity gets and the quicker your pay back is, the only time that it's practical to put up smaller turbines is if there are restrictions on size that is allowed in an area, an example of this is my parents property is a great wind site, not the best of course, but pretty good for our area, but unless they want to get in to all of the permitting that you have to do with industrial sized wind and the zoning restrictions and the fact that our Governor is corrupt and added restrictions that nearly ban industrial sized wind turbine in most of the state, they are restricted from putting up anything over 15kw in size, but I'm pretty sure they could put up 10 15kw wind turbines.

Quote:

Also wind power can never do more than provide a top end power over a nuclear or fossil fuel base load. I don't think that we'd accept as base load a generating system that produces nothing on the many, many calm ( or very stormy days.
A wind site is not going to have good pay back if it does not have consistent wind and the wind is predictable enough in a lot of these sites that projected power outputs are withing 3 to 5% of real life outputs and the nice thing about wind is that when it is used in conjunction with coal or other existing power plants, those power plants can be dialed in to run at their cleanest and most efficiently and the wind turbines can be throttled back as needed without polluting extra like coal does when you throttle it back, often times if you see a wind turbine that is not spinning that is the reason, throttle a coal plant back and the cost per kwh goes up and the pollution goes up, throttle back a wind turbine and nothing bad happens.

And yes, there are failed wind farm, often times they were run by greed, to keep a wind turbine running for 100+ years you need to budget 1% of the installed cost per year for maintenance, if you don't and you put all of the profits in the pockets of the greedy then 10 years down the line when something needs to be repaired there is no money to do it and you get some perfect propaganda photos of dilapidated wind turbines.
Thing is, if you don't budget for maintenance in any other kind of power plant you end up with the same issues, only we don't see it, we just taste it in our polluted ground water.
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Old 09-09-11, 10:36 AM   #10
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"No, you are not increasing the blade swing, you are increasing the collection area, by increasing the pressure at the front and decreasing the pressure behind and while it's not increasing the blade swing, it is increasing the frontal area, thus increasing the area that wind is being collected from.
Any time you keep the air from spilling over the tips of the blades you are going to increase the output, you can do this with a stationary rim, or you can do this with winglets on the tips of the blades."



When I look at the width of the ring being placed around the blades in the lab test,
(At 1 min 22 seconds into the video), it seems like they ring is only adding about 4 or 5 inches of width to edges of the frontal area..
That sure seems like a small ring, if they can actually get 2x to 3x power boost.
The total amount of sq inches of Ring, out there in the wind just seems too small to be having that kind of effect on efficiency.
But, it appears to be working..

Seems like a Spoiler..

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