Blank canvas waiting ?

randen · 10-09-12, 04:40 PM

Here it is, fall, perfect weather for construction outside. As mentioned in other postings about manufacturing a homemade geothermal heatpumps the second phase was to install solar hot-water heating to my shop. Here is the delemma: The shop is being heated now via the home made GSHP for about $350.00 per last seasons electrical costs. I know it wasn't cold but I used to send the oil man $2800.00.
I have the special tools, copper pipe, copper fin material and some of the
3/8" riser tube. Other materials nessisary (alot more 3/8 copper tube,clear plastic covering, insulation board, some wood studs and metal J for the wall) will be between $1000.00 to $1500.00 The connections to the in-floor heat and air handler are stubbed in the wall for tie in.
The idea was to make the solar collector similar to GaryGary's hot air shop heat built into the wall only with water so some heat can be stored in the concrete floor.
Like my home the GSHP would be the back-up and the sun would heat the shop until it was nessisary for the GSHP to start again.
I know the ecorenovators mantra the cost of energy is going to continue to rise and nothing beats the free heat of the sun. But even if the cost for heating the shop is half $175.00 thats a lot of money and work for a possible 10yr ROI.

The photos; a roll of copper fin material, riser tube rib form tool, small sample of solar collector and the blank canvas wall (approx 300 sq ft collector) 1600 sq ft shop.

Can you beleive it was a better deal to order a minimum weight of copper and scrap what I didn't use than to order the quantity I needed which sells at a outragous premium.!!

Randen:

Daox · 10-09-12, 05:36 PM

Woo, very interesting. How many square feet are you planning?

ecomodded · 10-10-12, 12:07 AM

Could you add the Solar heat system to your house instead of your Work shop ? since your home made GSHP is working so well in there.

randen · 10-10-12, 02:09 AM

Ecomodded Wrote:

Could you add the Solar heat system to your house instead of your Work shop ? since your home made GSHP is working so well in there.??

Yes did that. The system works extremely well. I just finished the last phase installing another 80 sq ft of flat panel area to the house. This panel can be adjusted for winter/summer angle for optimum heat collection. During the deepest part of the winter enough heat can be collected and heat the concrete in floor heat to heat the house for 24 hrs. In fact during the clearest sunny days the heat-exchanger is over-whelmed and hot water is returned to the panels and not absorbed into the floor.

The solar hot water system supplies about $1500.00 worth of heat a season. The domestic hot water for showers etc. has been supplied 100 % since March its now Oct. and maybe for only two days in that period of 8 months that a stretch of overcast/rainy weather I had to pay for hot water. During the winter months the system is set-up that if solar heat is avalible the GSHP is interuppted to utilize the solar heat first. If enough has been collected and the floor is warmed beyond the set point the GSHP will not start again until its heat is used up below that setpoint. Hopefully till the next day when the sun is shinning again to repeat the event.

For the house the amount of heat required for our creature comforts is much greater that the requirement of the shop. The house is larger by more than twice and is kept warmer and the shop dosen't require hot water for more than washing hands. During the weekends and over nite the shops temps are set-back so the shop is never needing the heat the house uses.

So there is the delemma should one invest a huge amount of time and money for a similar system for the shop. The shop this past season using the homemade GSHP cost about $350.00 to heat the shop. Adding solar would reduce that close to half. The only convincing thought is that the cost of electrical energy will always increase and the solar hot water will be always free.

Randen

The photos are the houses completed solar system and the temps seen during a sunny day.

ecomodded · 10-10-12, 11:18 PM

Wow ! your ahead of the game ! and what a nice sunny location.
I want the same system, I bet it increases the resale value of the house, it must, with the savings it provides.

randen · 10-11-12, 10:15 AM

Well I'm lead to beleive that any increase in value is more in granite counter-tops stainless appliances, fancy bathrooms and of late, media rooms for the expansive flat screen. If your wired to be a ecorenovator you have little time for the flat-screen TV.

My trouble is where to invest ones time and money for the reduction of money leaving my wallet. These projects must be within my capabilities to do it well. The posting on increasing the efficiency of the fridge by moving the compressor is probably a place I wouldn't go. Alot of work for a little gain. $$

Here in Ontario we have a programm Feed In Tarrif where with a solar PV system we can get paid well for the power we produce for the grid. A $42K investment return 6K/yr. Hmm!! We re in need of a new family car ours is 19 yrs old. We spend about $4k/yr in gasoline. Hey look at the new Nissan Leaf (electric vehicle) won't spend a dime for gasoline. Here in Ontario is about $40K Hmm! Sizeable investments but so is the return.

For the shop I may forge on with the solar hot water as I have most of the components. It may not be this fall. We'll have to see how the budget of time avalible for the projects construction flows. I also wonder the impact of the addition of insulation may make to the shops efficiency

My homemade heat pump has a little weeping leak that needs to be repaired before I charge it with the Glycol otherwise we're ready for winter.

Randen

Daox · 10-22-12, 01:23 PM

Any updates on this project?

Mikesolar · 10-22-12, 07:27 PM

I am curious as to the thickness of the copper. Most solar companies are going aluminum as copper is so dear. Also, what was the paint you used?

randen · 10-23-12, 11:50 AM

The cost of copper is not cheap but its coeffeicient of heat conduction is more than twice than that of aluminum. I haven't experimented with the two conductors (fins)side by side to gather any gained effeicency with the copper in a solar hot water collector. The copper spool that I had bought was about $600.00 and my feeling is if I'm going to utilize my labour to offset the cost of a comercially manufactured unit I would like it built better. The panels I had built, I used twice the amount of insulation and copper fin soldered to the copper risers and the low iron glass. The box used to house the collector is recycled stainless steel. Utilizing the better materials hopfully I had built a better panel than a commercial unit. The finished product looks good and performs well and the one panel is custom fitted to its location on the balconey.

To answer the question the copper fin material is 0.008" x 4" Oh and the black paint is just an barbeque flat black aerosol

To help the motivation for Daox. The only days we have the back-up heat pump on are the consecutive cloudy days. The sunny days we heat the home entirerly with solar heat collected by our panels. Keep going!!!

I had hoped to start the install of a solar collector system to the shop this fall. With the new performance of the Home made GSHP for heating the shop the need to augment the heat input to reduce the cost of heating has lowered the need on the to-do list. It will still happen but later.

As of late I've embarked on a project of an electric pick-up truck to reduce the cost of transportation. My cost for gasoline for the year is approx $3500-$4000 The cost to heat the shop used to be $2800 and now $350. Even if I reduced it to $0 the time and effort will not effect the strain on the wallet like reducing the expenedure on gasoline and we know how that price can creep (jump) up.

The installation of the solar collectors will still happen all the materials are here and the provisional tubing to integrate the hot water to the heating system in the shop is stubbed out in the wall, awaiting. Till then I'm being entertained with the flow of electrons from a sizable Nimh battery pack thru a inverter motor controller to a 106hp electric motor that will turn the wheels. Ha

Randen

Daox · 10-23-12, 12:36 PM

Sounds great. I'm in the opposite boat. I've reduced my daily commute and have an efficient vehicle so my cost to commute is a fraction of my home utillity costs. So, the focus shifts to the house!

10-09-12, 04:40 PM	#1
randen Uber EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Strathroy Ontario Canada Posts: 657 Thanks: 9 Thanked 191 Times in 129 Posts	Blank canvas waiting ? Here it is, fall, perfect weather for construction outside. As mentioned in other postings about manufacturing a homemade geothermal heatpumps the second phase was to install solar hot-water heating to my shop. Here is the delemma: The shop is being heated now via the home made GSHP for about $350.00 per last seasons electrical costs. I know it wasn't cold but I used to send the oil man $2800.00. I have the special tools, copper pipe, copper fin material and some of the 3/8" riser tube. Other materials nessisary (alot more 3/8 copper tube,clear plastic covering, insulation board, some wood studs and metal J for the wall) will be between $1000.00 to $1500.00 The connections to the in-floor heat and air handler are stubbed in the wall for tie in. The idea was to make the solar collector similar to GaryGary's hot air shop heat built into the wall only with water so some heat can be stored in the concrete floor. Like my home the GSHP would be the back-up and the sun would heat the shop until it was nessisary for the GSHP to start again. I know the ecorenovators mantra the cost of energy is going to continue to rise and nothing beats the free heat of the sun. But even if the cost for heating the shop is half $175.00 thats a lot of money and work for a possible 10yr ROI. The photos; a roll of copper fin material, riser tube rib form tool, small sample of solar collector and the blank canvas wall (approx 300 sq ft collector) 1600 sq ft shop. Can you beleive it was a better deal to order a minimum weight of copper and scrap what I didn't use than to order the quantity I needed which sells at a outragous premium.!! Randen: Attached Thumbnails

10-09-12, 05:36 PM	#2
Daox Administrator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Germantown, WI Posts: 5,525 Thanks: 1,162 Thanked 374 Times in 305 Posts	Woo, very interesting. How many square feet are you planning? __________________ Current project - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. & To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

10-10-12, 02:09 AM	#4
randen Uber EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Strathroy Ontario Canada Posts: 657 Thanks: 9 Thanked 191 Times in 129 Posts	Blank Canvas Ecomodded Wrote: Could you add the Solar heat system to your house instead of your Work shop ? since your home made GSHP is working so well in there.?? Yes did that. The system works extremely well. I just finished the last phase installing another 80 sq ft of flat panel area to the house. This panel can be adjusted for winter/summer angle for optimum heat collection. During the deepest part of the winter enough heat can be collected and heat the concrete in floor heat to heat the house for 24 hrs. In fact during the clearest sunny days the heat-exchanger is over-whelmed and hot water is returned to the panels and not absorbed into the floor. The solar hot water system supplies about $1500.00 worth of heat a season. The domestic hot water for showers etc. has been supplied 100 % since March its now Oct. and maybe for only two days in that period of 8 months that a stretch of overcast/rainy weather I had to pay for hot water. During the winter months the system is set-up that if solar heat is avalible the GSHP is interuppted to utilize the solar heat first. If enough has been collected and the floor is warmed beyond the set point the GSHP will not start again until its heat is used up below that setpoint. Hopefully till the next day when the sun is shinning again to repeat the event. For the house the amount of heat required for our creature comforts is much greater that the requirement of the shop. The house is larger by more than twice and is kept warmer and the shop dosen't require hot water for more than washing hands. During the weekends and over nite the shops temps are set-back so the shop is never needing the heat the house uses. So there is the delemma should one invest a huge amount of time and money for a similar system for the shop. The shop this past season using the homemade GSHP cost about $350.00 to heat the shop. Adding solar would reduce that close to half. The only convincing thought is that the cost of electrical energy will always increase and the solar hot water will be always free. Randen The photos are the houses completed solar system and the temps seen during a sunny day. Attached Thumbnails

10-11-12, 10:15 AM	#6
randen Uber EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Strathroy Ontario Canada Posts: 657 Thanks: 9 Thanked 191 Times in 129 Posts	Well I'm lead to beleive that any increase in value is more in granite counter-tops stainless appliances, fancy bathrooms and of late, media rooms for the expansive flat screen. If your wired to be a ecorenovator you have little time for the flat-screen TV. My trouble is where to invest ones time and money for the reduction of money leaving my wallet. These projects must be within my capabilities to do it well. The posting on increasing the efficiency of the fridge by moving the compressor is probably a place I wouldn't go. Alot of work for a little gain. $$ Here in Ontario we have a programm Feed In Tarrif where with a solar PV system we can get paid well for the power we produce for the grid. A $42K investment return 6K/yr. Hmm!! We re in need of a new family car ours is 19 yrs old. We spend about $4k/yr in gasoline. Hey look at the new Nissan Leaf (electric vehicle) won't spend a dime for gasoline. Here in Ontario is about $40K Hmm! Sizeable investments but so is the return. For the shop I may forge on with the solar hot water as I have most of the components. It may not be this fall. We'll have to see how the budget of time avalible for the projects construction flows. I also wonder the impact of the addition of insulation may make to the shops efficiency My homemade heat pump has a little weeping leak that needs to be repaired before I charge it with the Glycol otherwise we're ready for winter. Randen Last edited by randen; 10-11-12 at 10:18 AM.. Reason: better explanation

10-22-12, 01:23 PM	#7
Daox Administrator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Germantown, WI Posts: 5,525 Thanks: 1,162 Thanked 374 Times in 305 Posts	Any updates on this project? __________________ Current project - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. & To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

10-10-12, 12:07 AM	#3
ecomodded Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Vancouver Island,Canada. Posts: 1,037 Thanks: 116 Thanked 100 Times in 87 Posts	Could you add the Solar heat system to your house instead of your Work shop ? since your home made GSHP is working so well in there.

10-10-12, 11:18 PM	#5
ecomodded Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Vancouver Island,Canada. Posts: 1,037 Thanks: 116 Thanked 100 Times in 87 Posts	Wow ! your ahead of the game ! and what a nice sunny location. I want the same system, I bet it increases the resale value of the house, it must, with the savings it provides.

10-22-12, 07:27 PM	#8
Mikesolar Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Toronto Posts: 958 Thanks: 40 Thanked 158 Times in 150 Posts	I am curious as to the thickness of the copper. Most solar companies are going aluminum as copper is so dear. Also, what was the paint you used?

10-23-12, 11:50 AM	#9
randen Uber EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Strathroy Ontario Canada Posts: 657 Thanks: 9 Thanked 191 Times in 129 Posts	The cost of copper is not cheap but its coeffeicient of heat conduction is more than twice than that of aluminum. I haven't experimented with the two conductors (fins)side by side to gather any gained effeicency with the copper in a solar hot water collector. The copper spool that I had bought was about $600.00 and my feeling is if I'm going to utilize my labour to offset the cost of a comercially manufactured unit I would like it built better. The panels I had built, I used twice the amount of insulation and copper fin soldered to the copper risers and the low iron glass. The box used to house the collector is recycled stainless steel. Utilizing the better materials hopfully I had built a better panel than a commercial unit. The finished product looks good and performs well and the one panel is custom fitted to its location on the balconey. To answer the question the copper fin material is 0.008" x 4" Oh and the black paint is just an barbeque flat black aerosol To help the motivation for Daox. The only days we have the back-up heat pump on are the consecutive cloudy days. The sunny days we heat the home entirerly with solar heat collected by our panels. Keep going!!! I had hoped to start the install of a solar collector system to the shop this fall. With the new performance of the Home made GSHP for heating the shop the need to augment the heat input to reduce the cost of heating has lowered the need on the to-do list. It will still happen but later. As of late I've embarked on a project of an electric pick-up truck to reduce the cost of transportation. My cost for gasoline for the year is approx $3500-$4000 The cost to heat the shop used to be $2800 and now $350. Even if I reduced it to $0 the time and effort will not effect the strain on the wallet like reducing the expenedure on gasoline and we know how that price can creep (jump) up. The installation of the solar collectors will still happen all the materials are here and the provisional tubing to integrate the hot water to the heating system in the shop is stubbed out in the wall, awaiting. Till then I'm being entertained with the flow of electrons from a sizable Nimh battery pack thru a inverter motor controller to a 106hp electric motor that will turn the wheels. Ha Randen Last edited by randen; 10-23-12 at 12:26 PM.. Reason: paint used

10-23-12, 12:36 PM	#10
Daox Administrator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Germantown, WI Posts: 5,525 Thanks: 1,162 Thanked 374 Times in 305 Posts	Sounds great. I'm in the opposite boat. I've reduced my daily commute and have an efficient vehicle so my cost to commute is a fraction of my home utillity costs. So, the focus shifts to the house! __________________ Current project - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. & To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.