EcoRenovator  

Go Back   EcoRenovator > Improvements > Geothermal & Heat Pumps
Advanced Search
 


Blog 60+ Home Energy Saving Tips Recent Posts Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-14-12, 01:19 PM   #121
Vern2
Apprentice EcoRenovator
 
Vern2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Arizona
Posts: 145
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default

This info on the A7 is found no-where. Thank you!

Question - What's the longevity of the A7?

Next question. I'm expecting the A7 to out last the hot water tank. Yes/No?

So how the heck do you change the hot water tank?

Will the copper loop come out of the tank?

What's the cost of a new copper loop for the next tank?

From my memory the company does not answer there phone. Because of people like me asking stupid questions. I tried calling them before the A7.

__________________
Vern
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Vern2; 08-14-12 at 01:25 PM..
Vern2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-12, 01:55 PM   #122
Xringer
Lex Parsimoniae
 
Xringer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Woburn, MA
Posts: 4,918
Thanks: 114
Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vern2 View Post
This info on the A7 is found no-where. Thank you!

Question - What's the longevity of the A7?

Next question. I'm expecting the A7 to out last the hot water tank. Yes/No?

So how the heck do you change the hot water tank?

Will the copper loop come out of the tank?

What's the cost of a new copper loop for the next tank?
In the FAQ at AirGenerate.com | Retrofit it says 10 years.

25. How long will the AirTap™ unit last?
The life of the AirTap™ is expected to be ten years.


It's at AirGenerate.com | Retrofit

It's a pretty simple unit. Kinda like the 1973 Sears Dehumidifier that
we recycled last year. It still worked like new, after 38 years..
The garden hose connection had rusted out and I didn't like dumping the pan.
There was no float to shut off the unit when the pan got full..

I'm not sure if the A7 copper coil is going to wear out very fast.
I have a large submerged 1/2" copper coil in my 1977 oil boiler (HS Tarm). No leaks yet.

Installing the A7 isn't that hard. Pushing the HX copper loop into the tank isn't hard.
So, I suspect it's not going to be real hard to un-install.

If you change the anode when it needs it, your heater/A7 might last a long time.

My guess is, this tank-top-add-on technology might be cloned in China,
and available on Ebay by the time my A7 wears out. (If I'm lucky).

If this thing works okay during cold weather. I might buy a second unit for back-up..
LOL! That would insure it would last the rest of my life..
__________________
My hobby is installing & trying to repair mini-splits
EPA 608 Type 1 Technician Certification ~ 5 lbs or less..
Xringer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-12, 06:49 PM   #123
raydias
Lurking Renovator
 
raydias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: lincoln CA
Posts: 14
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

I considered the Solar hot water collector but the cost and payback just didn't make since. My hot water heater is gas and my average summer time gas bill is around $10. The AirTap would make more sense with the lower costs (found on e-bay for less than $500) and my attic hit 133 this last weekend. My garage houses the gas water heater and it has hit 91 today in the garage. Partly due to my current project of installing tile flooring and having the house fridge in the garage as well. Winter time might not work out as well in the garage (was a bit chilly last winter) but I could put together a solar hot air heater (fairly cheap to put together) to pump heat into the garage. The attic would still make sense even in the winter. Installation would take some planning.
__________________
Ray
raydias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-12, 08:17 PM   #124
Xringer
Lex Parsimoniae
 
Xringer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Woburn, MA
Posts: 4,918
Thanks: 114
Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by randen View Post
Xringer wrote: During the last 11 days, (or 264 hours) the A7 run-time is 16 hours.
It used 9.417 kWh, or $1.53, instead of $22 burning 5.5 gallons of oil.

$1.53 OMG thats outragous!!! How can you justify that.! With the solar hot water 11 days works out to less than $0.75 Just kidding. WE are lucky being eco-renovators that we are able to do these things. Although I complain to my wife that I always have a tool in my hand. Like Xringer now, by applying some common sense and sweat equity we don't worry how long we are in the shower or running hot water for anything.

The only other guilt trip is, for me at least: Why did I wait so long to do this???

Congrats Xringer. Good job.
Thanks Randen,
I got into this project not knowing if I would be able do everything required.
Also not knowing how well it would work. So far, I know it's good in the summer!

Whenever I do anything that I've never done before, there is a risk of failure.
But, it's only money, so why not try? You can't take it with you..
What I don't want to do, is invest a lot of time and labor in a high risk project.
I try to understand what I'll need to know to complete the project.
Some projects don't work out, but I do learn from them.

"Why did I wait so long to do this??? "
Well, on this one, I was waiting for Ebay prices..

~~~
Since our hot water requirements are so low, I think solar collector hotwater would be a mistake.
This ASHP was just so much easier. And, I had an extra $800 kicking around.

~~~

What if it's no good during the really cold months??

Use the heating elements!

Now that I'm finding out how many BTUhs of hotwater we are using, I'm starting to
ponder the idea of using 120vac @ abt 1200 watts (4094 BTUh) during those cold months.

Since 120AC makes about 1/2 the BTUh of the A7, the recovery time would be slow.
But, it might still work well enough for us. If we were using 16,000 BTUh
each day, that works out to 4.8 kWh, or 78 cents a day. Not too horrible (like $2 for oil).
I could just set the timer for 5 hours, starting at 8AM..

Dang, does it seem like I'll do anything to keep from burning oil??
__________________
My hobby is installing & trying to repair mini-splits
EPA 608 Type 1 Technician Certification ~ 5 lbs or less..

Last edited by Xringer; 08-14-12 at 08:20 PM..
Xringer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-12, 09:31 PM   #125
Vlad
Apprentice EcoRenovator
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Windsor ON Canada
Posts: 229
Thanks: 4
Thanked 30 Times in 22 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by raydias View Post
I considered the Solar hot water collector but the cost and payback just didn't make since. My hot water heater is gas and my average summer time gas bill is around $10. The AirTap would make more sense with the lower costs (found on e-bay for less than $500) and my attic hit 133 this last weekend. My garage houses the gas water heater and it has hit 91 today in the garage. Partly due to my current project of installing tile flooring and having the house fridge in the garage as well. Winter time might not work out as well in the garage (was a bit chilly last winter) but I could put together a solar hot air heater (fairly cheap to put together) to pump heat into the garage. The attic would still make sense even in the winter. Installation would take some planning.
It is possible to just put evaporator coil with small fan in attic and compressor and condenser coil (which is your copper tubing sitting in HWT) just next to HWT. You can build this from scrap. Check out "manifesto". In your case you have almost endless source of free heat which is your attic.

I think checking attic temperature is a very good idea. I will drop a thermometer there.

Last edited by Vlad; 08-14-12 at 09:38 PM..
Vlad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-12, 10:33 PM   #126
Xringer
Lex Parsimoniae
 
Xringer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Woburn, MA
Posts: 4,918
Thanks: 114
Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad View Post
It is possible to just put evaporator coil with small fan in attic and compressor and condenser coil (which is your copper tubing sitting in HWT) just next to HWT. You can build this from scrap. Check out "manifesto". In your case you have almost endless source of free heat which is your attic.

I think checking attic temperature is a very good idea. I will drop a thermometer there.
I was thinking about that same idea (remoted Evaporator coil in the attic) the other week.

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothe...html#post23565

But in my scheme, the heat would be used to heat the air in my basement. (During the winter months).
By warming up the basement when the sun is up, I would provide warmer air for my AirTap,
make it more comfy in the basement, so I could work in my shop,
and the heat rising up, would slightly warm the floor boards up stairs.

I think the idea has some merit..

~~~
One other crazy idea that crossed my mind was to skip using a coil and fan in the attic.
Maybe try using some of that radiant floor heating hardware up there.?.
Perhaps direct contact with sun warmed roof lumber would work.?.
__________________
My hobby is installing & trying to repair mini-splits
EPA 608 Type 1 Technician Certification ~ 5 lbs or less..

Last edited by Xringer; 08-14-12 at 10:42 PM..
Xringer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-12, 11:20 PM   #127
Vlad
Apprentice EcoRenovator
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Windsor ON Canada
Posts: 229
Thanks: 4
Thanked 30 Times in 22 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xringer View Post
One other crazy idea that crossed my mind was to skip using a coil and fan in the attic.
Maybe try using some of that radiant floor heating hardware up there.?.
Perhaps direct contact with sun warmed roof lumber would work.?.
The difference between direct heat extraction and using refrigeration cycle for heat extraction is that refrigeration cycle allows to use low heat for "producing" high heat. If you just try using attic heat directly you are limited to what you have right now when it is hot. As soon as temperature in attic equals or even a bit higher to temperature at the place you want to heat up your "heating" system will stop working. You need temperature difference to make it work. Heat pump will keep pumping heat even when attic temperature is lower than temperature were you need it.

Also you probably want to attach pex with plates to roof plywood but how?? Nail it from inside and damage the roof??? OK you can use very short nails but you already have hundreds of nail sticking out from plywood.

Let's see how this can work very well with refrigeration system:

1. Summer time is self explanatory it is super hot there and you just pump heat to your tank. This also will keep your attic cooler and help your AC.
2. Winter time gives you enough heat (depends on your sun exposure) during day time and your system can extract this heat efficiently. But during night time when it is cold there your heat pump system is down and you use (if you need at all) elements.

To control this system when to work and when use elements is super easy you can just install very basic even mechanical thermostat. Many mechanical thermostats have 2 pairs of contacts NO and NC. One pair will control your heat pump system and the other one will turn on/off your elements.

Last edited by Vlad; 08-14-12 at 11:24 PM..
Vlad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-12, 04:21 PM   #128
berniebenz
Helper EcoRenovator
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Gardnerville, NV
Posts: 66
Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Default A7 AirTap install update, per Xringer’s email request...

Thanks for your interest, Rich.
In summary of my past posts on this subject (advanced search my handle in this thread for details) I was unable to insert the A7’s Cu tubing evaporator snake into my oddball HWH so am moving to add an external HX evaporator into an existing HW recirc loop used for my in floor heating.

Going DIY on the cheap, I lucked out with this $20. SS brazed plate HX from eBay, in that it has been adapted to ¼” flare on one side and ¾” Cu tube fittings on the other without having to machine adaptors. FYI, a ¼” flare to ⅛”FPT brass adaptor is a nice push fit into the ID of the HX’s SS tube and a Cu ½” x ¾” union is a nice push fit over the OD of the HX’s SS tube, adapting to the ¾” recirc loop. Just right for silver brazing. BTDT

Next step is to instal this HX into the HWH’s recirc loop. My concern is the ref side not pooling compressor oil, so I plan to run the evap return line from the bottom of the HX, at the forfeit of counter a flow HX condition. Comments?

How to tap the A7’s ref system? It only has a hi side sealed port, thru which apparently they add their 8.8 oz F22 factory charge. No low side tap.
So, I intend to add an access valve to this hi side tap. The volume of one side of the HX is about ⅝ cup of H2O, likely more than the 30’ of 0.22 OD Cu evap tube?
For the low side, there is a short straight length of ⅜” Cu tube between the condenser coil exit and the filter dryer, sufficient to accept a pierce valve tap for replacement F22.

FYI, the last two A7s on eBay auction that I’ve followed went for $262. and $277. + $60 and $50 shipping respectively. We bought too early!

Suffering from Old Farts’ disease! Planning a project is as always but implementation has slowed down considerably. The only problem with retirement is that one can’t go back to work to rest up! It’s all Go! Go! Go!

Last edited by berniebenz; 08-15-12 at 06:02 PM.. Reason: Corrected evap tubing OD.
berniebenz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-12, 06:16 PM   #129
Vlad
Apprentice EcoRenovator
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Windsor ON Canada
Posts: 229
Thanks: 4
Thanked 30 Times in 22 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by berniebenz View Post
Thanks for your interest, Rich.
In summary of my past posts on this subject (advanced search my handle in this thread for details) I was unable to insert the A7’s Cu tubing evaporator snake into my oddball HWH so am moving to add an external HX evaporator into an existing HW recirc loop used for my in floor heating.

Going DIY on the cheap, I lucked out with this $20. SS brazed plate HX from eBay, in that it has been adapted to ¼” flare on one side and ¾” Cu tube fittings on the other without having to machine adaptors. FYI, a ¼” flare to ⅛”FPT brass adaptor is a nice push fit into the ID of the HX’s SS tube and a Cu ½” x ¾” union is a nice push fit over the OD of the HX’s SS tube, adapting to the ¾” recirc loop. Just right for silver brazing. BTDT

Next step is to instal this HX into the HWH’s recirc loop. My concern is the ref side not pooling compressor oil, so I plan to run the evap return line from the bottom of the HX, at the forfeit of counter a flow HX condition. Comments?

How to tap the A7’s ref system? It only has a hi side sealed port, thru which apparently they add their 8.8 oz F22 factory charge. No low side tap.
So, I intend to add an access valve to this hi side tap. The volume of one side of the HX is about ⅝ cup of H2O, likely more than the 30’ of 0.22 OD Cu evap tube?
For the low side, there is a short straight length of ⅜” Cu tube between the condenser coil exit and the filter dryer, sufficient to accept a pierce valve tap for replacement F22.

FYI, the last two A7s on eBay auction that I’ve followed went for $262. and $277. + $60 and $50 shipping respectively. We bought too early!

Suffering from Old Farts’ disease! Planning a project is as always but implementation has slowed down considerably. The only problem with retirement is that one can’t go back to work to rest up! It’s all Go! Go! Go!
First of all your HX is going to be a condenser (high pressure side) unless you are building a beer cooler .

Second you will have to recover refrigerant properly. Then you can chop off your copper tubing and connect your HX (which must be pressure rated to 350-400 psi). Using flares with refrigerant is a bad idea, I would rather braze.
Last thing you will have to vacuum your system and charge right amount of refrigerant. This right amount will change because your HX capacity is different. How to determine this right amount is a whole another story....

So, small thing like this can be a real pain when you don't know what you are doing...

PS. You don't have to worry about oil because high side ends up liquid side. Liquid refrigerant can carry oil very good.
Vlad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-12, 07:11 PM   #130
berniebenz
Helper EcoRenovator
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Gardnerville, NV
Posts: 66
Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad View Post
First of all your HX is going to be a condenser (high pressure side) unless you are building a beer cooler .

Second you will have to recover refrigerant properly. Then you can chop off your copper tubing and connect your HX (which must be pressure rated to 350-400 psi). Using flares with refrigerant is a bad idea, I would rather braze.
Last thing you will have to vacuum your system and charge right amount of refrigerant. This right amount will change because your HX capacity is different. How to determine this right amount is a whole another story....

So, small thing like this can be a real pain when you don't know what you are doing...

PS. You don't have to worry about oil because high side ends up liquid side. Liquid refrigerant can carry oil very good.
I stand corrected, Condenser vs Evap. Thanks Vlad!

Neighbor is a HVAC mechanic, has vac pump, ref, gages, and know how.

So, I can go to a counter flow HX configuration, returning the liquid from the top of the HX? Oil no worry. Just seems better to force the liquid into the tube from a bottom puddle rather than bubbling it up to the top?

I’m not worried about HX. FME and res. Cu brazed plate SS HX can easily handle these pressures, even if the app. is not so rated. Especially in small sizes. It will either leak or not, no big deal.

Is a double flare joint better than a single flare? Or, I can braze the tubing inside my ¼” flare fittings already attached.

berniebenz is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:56 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Ad Management by RedTyger
Inactive Reminders By Icora Web Design