Takagi T-KJr2-IN Tankless Water Heater

[Servicetech]

Just found out our local gas company is offering a $250 rebate on tankless water heaters with EF .82 are higher. The WH is $556 shipped. $300 + 10' of SS venting net cost, SS venting should be under $200 with roof cap. Current 15yr old 50 gallon water heater still working good, but it's on borrowed time. 50 gallon tank heater runs about $400 locally. Wanted to get some input on if this a worthwhile purchase or is there a better value out there?

[ecomodded]

Pinballooking had a tip for Xringer in his - Don't mess with gas water heaters (if you do not know what your doing) - thread

Sounds like it may be useful to you !

Originally Posted by pinballlooking

I think I would have switched to a tankless like I got. Takagi T-H3-DV with 0.95 energy factor.
Takagi USA - The tankless water heater pioneers. Experience "Endless Hot Water"
You are pretty close to the same cost and it vents with 3”PVC

[Servicetech]

I looked at that model, but at $982 shipped, it is far from the same cost. $400 price difference, but uses PVC venting, which saves 1/2 the price difference. No problem with messing with gas, I do HVAC for a living. Unless labor is DIY tankless doesn't have a reasonable payback time.

Does anybody make a tankless that is modulating and uses normal B vent? What have they been using in europe for decades?

[ecomodded]

If you want the best you pay for it - Much like a Quality hot Wife

[AC_Hacker]

Originally Posted by Servicetech

Just found out our local gas company is offering a $250 rebate on tankless water heaters with EF .82 are higher.

If you're seriously considering a tankless, there are a few advantageous adjustments you can make that will improve your experience and reduce your energy use...

Since tankless heaters are smaller, you have more options as to where to install them.

Installing them as close as possible to the most frequently-used hot water outlet is best, not the highest volume use. The reason being (same as with a tank heater) there is a cold water slug that has to run through before you get hot water... less distance = less cold water slug. Tankless heaters do have a brief heating-ramp to get to full hot water, so the cold slug is a bit longer.

The other is the hot-cold mixing habit that all tank-users have. That is when you wash your hands or take a bath, and you mix hot & cold to get the temp right. I think the practice started with smaller capacity water tanks... so over heating at the tank and then mixing with cold yielded an effectively greater volume of hot water.

Also, with tankless, there can be a buildup of scale on the inside of the heat exchanger, and the greater the heat, the greater the buildup, and the shorter the life. So lower temperatures = longer life. You will still need to periodically de-scale a tankless any how, so be sure to install de-scaling valves when you install.

Additionally, there is a minimum flow sensor that must be exceeded before the heating begins. It's usually lowish like .5 liter per minute or so, but if the flow goes lower, the heating turns off.

If you insist on higher temp water, and then mix down (as you would when washing your hands), you can easily fall below the .5 liter per minute level and the heater shuts off while you are washing your hands.

The fix is to determine what the max heat is you actually need. For me it is taking a shower, so I took a shower and measured the temp at the shower head... it measured 107F (your mileage may vary). Then I tweaked my tankless to give me that temp (a bit of fine adjustment was needed) and now when I take a shower, I use 100% hot water. The same temp is about right for washing dishes by hand also.

So with this setup, no anti-scalding valve is required, because if there is another user, the hot water temp is not effected, even if they are using hot water!

Best,

-AC_Hacker

[pinballlooking]

Originally Posted by Servicetech

I looked at that model, but at $982 shipped, it is far from the same cost. $400 price difference, but uses PVC venting, which saves 1/2 the price difference. No problem with messing with gas, I do HVAC for a living. Unless labor is DIY tankless doesn't have a reasonable payback time.

Does anybody make a tankless that is modulating and uses normal B vent? What have they been using in europe for decades?

These guy had some decent prices. The have 12% off today ST Patrick’s day.
Our Products | Appliances - Water Heaters - Tankless | Bargaintory.com
I thought about getting a RINNAI from them until I priced out the venting.( I have not bought from them)
I needed PVC venting and I wanted .95 energy factor but didn’t you say you had cheap natural gas. If so .95 energy factor might not be important to you.
You are so right about the DYI to get payback two doors up from me had a Navien installed his cost was almost double mine cost and he had a friend do the install.

[Mikesolar]

I have put in a lot of tankless heaters and the Jr is the last one I would install. Not a high flow rate and you have to be very careful not to let really cold temps get into the unit. I've replaced a few of them this winter.

My fav is the Navien which uses 2" CPVC venting. There are no B vent units that I know of.

Does anyone worry about a warranty? Most manufacturers don't honour internet companies warranty returns.

[Servicetech]

The gas company requires contractor installation to get the $250 rebate. Why does tankless have to be so expensive/difficult? Expensive condensing models or high cost SS venting required. No warranty/rebates unless contractor installed makes them that much less appealing. I guess that's why less than 5% of installed water heaters in teh US are tankless. They have been using them in Europe for decades, why are they so much more practical over there?

Looks like I'm back to another tank when my current tank fails, unless the government brings back the rebates on the tankless. I'll never save enough in gas use to offset the additional $600 that a good condensing tankless costs. I'd like to go with a tankless, but it needs to make economic sense.

[Servicetech]

Whoa!! Catagory 3 SS venting is single wall and requires a 6" clearence to combustibles, making installation that much more difficult. Looks like the only non-condensing water heater that is an option is the Marey due to it being able to use standard B vent. With a price LOWER than a 50 gallon tank, maybe it's worth a 2nd look.

Other options are an outdoor style water heater (no expensive venting), but will they be OK when outdoor temps drop into the teens? What about the water pipes going outdoors to the heater?

[pinballlooking]

Originally Posted by Mikesolar

Does anyone worry about a warranty? Most manufacturers don't honour internet companies warranty returns.

I care about warranty I wanted to get a Navien and I called there tech support three times. They will not honor warranty in you buy over the internet or do a self-install. They will not even let the home owner go through tech support for an issue. The Plummer has to call the guy two doors down is a Plummer but I don’t want to bug him when I have an issue.

I called an online company that was selling Navien and told them the Navien would not cover the warranty if I bought form them. They said that was true but if a Plummer calls they will usually cover it. Thanks but no thanks.

So that is why I did not buy their product.

I called Rheem Tech support more than once and they said they would cover the warranty if I bought online they would even cover the warranty if I did a DIY install. But if the issue was caused by a bad install they would not cover that issue. That seems fair to me. I was all set to buy the Rheem RTGH-95DVLN

Then I saw Takagi T-H3-DV looked like the same unit just a little cheaper. I called their tech support and they had no issue covering it if I bought it online. It just had to be new. They said they would even cover it if I did the installed as long as it was installed by the book.


My friend the Plummer approved the plan and review the install so I am good to go.
Another reason I called the tech support I wanted to make sure they would have parts and the model I was going to buy was not at the end of the live cycle. They quit selling most parts for my old aqustar tank not long after after I got it. What good is a product that last 15 years if you can’t get parts for it.