Ground loop pipes above ground for winter? - Page 2

jeff5may · 10-27-17, 08:08 PM

3/4inch pipe is like 3 gallons per 100 feet of length.

ecomodded · 10-27-17, 08:30 PM

It sounds pretty straight forward I should read up the install options and find out whats best for a small system

ecomodded · 10-28-17, 03:34 PM

Its sounding like the larger the loop the more efficient the system is. Makes me think it would be good run a 9000Btu heat pump in a 12000btu outdoor loop or bigger with a large indoor loop under the floor. This way the water does not have to get as warm to be useful.

A steady COP 4 would be a nice goal to reach

WyrTwister · 11-20-17, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sccoupe

Freezing weather is fast approaching and i'm still drilling holes. Two ton is complete and being utilized. Some changes need made before it starts freezing and i'm not sure if i'll be able to get the feeder pipes buried before winter. Options i see so far is...

-Pull the pipes out of the holes, empty, and heat with electric until Spring.

Or some combination of...

-Add antifreeze to the loop.
-Add pipe insulation to the parts that are above ground.
-Leave the circulation pump on 24/7. (Could loose power in a storm)
-Add a home build pump controller to circulate on a schedule.
-Add electric pipe heaters to the parts above ground.

Any further thoughts or ideas on solutions? They may still get buried in time but I have the feeling that i'll be too late as usual.

I would think all of the latter ideas .

Typically , when does it start to go below 32F , where you live ?

What kind of pipe will be exposed above ground ( PEX ? ) ?

Best of luck to you , :-)
Wyr
God bless

Sccoupe · 11-21-17, 01:56 PM

Everything is already buried, hooked up, antifreeze added, and in use. This past weekend, I converted a one ton portable heat pump (two hose type) to geothermal by swapping the condensor with a 1 ton coaxial condensor that I had for other testing. Hooked up another circulation pump and hoses and its now really pumping out the heat. For the most part (before the real cold) the 4 ton air source heat pump can be shut off and only the circulation fan left running. One issue so far is that the thermostat in the portable unit is reading colder than it should, so the temps get too hot in the house and when it finally shuts off, the thermostat temp jumps up to what it should read. Removing the stock evaporator may have left a way for it to suck in some colder air from around the coaxial evaporator in some way. Thats the theory, need to be played with some. Also, watching the electric use, the portable 1 ton seems to use twice the electric that my other one ton geothermal PTAC uses. Not sure what to think of that yet. The PTAC is geothermal from the factory with TXV and all that by Climatemaster and the other like I said is a converted portable with cap tubes. Perhaps the conversion shows it inefficiency, or maybe the unit wasnt meant to be as efficient in heating mode, not sure yet.

Jason

Quote:

Originally Posted by WyrTwister

I would think all of the latter ideas .

Typically , when does it start to go below 32F , where you live ?

What kind of pipe will be exposed above ground ( PEX ? ) ?

Best of luck to you , :-)
Wyr
God bless

WyrTwister · 11-22-17, 09:31 AM

Can you remote mount / relocate the thermostat sensor on the converted unit ?

You are comparing your re-purposed unit to a purpose built heat pump ? Both 1 ton ?

Can you compare the heat output ? If the re-purposed unit is using twice as much electricity , but putting out twice the amount of heat , you are not being hurt .

Happy Thanksgiving to you all , :-)
Wyr
God bless

Ron342 · 11-29-17, 07:14 AM

Figuring your machine's heat output and the corresponding electricity used so you have some idea how good your machine is doing has always been a problem for me, particularly for the air output rigs- tough to figure the airflow in and out even if the in/out temps are easy.
Sounds like you have a water output condenser so that would be easier - buy a $12 Chinese flowmeter and check the in/out temps and you have your btu output.
Sometimes I just measure the flow rate and temp difference of the in and out loop water temps and use that to figure the btu output.
Then there's the problem of figuring the watts used - I guess you could trip the breakers on every circuit but the one you're using for the heat pump and read your utility meter but I wonder how accurate they are and that resets every gadget in your house.
I have a killerwatt usage meter but they only read 120v and most larger heat pumps run on 240v.
I've tried using my clamp meter to get the 240 v amps used by each 240v phase but then wondered if I should multiply the clamp meter amps times the voltage to get watts or if I should add the amps of each phase together times the voltage? Then am I reading rms amps and is that the right reading to multiply by the rms voltage?

Anyone do this for a living??

jeff5may · 11-29-17, 11:12 PM

Ok so if you look around the web for a minute, you will find that there are lots of power usage meters made for 220 to 240 VAC. Over in Europe, most countries have higher voltage at every outlet. Another good model is TED: the energy detective.

If you have a decent ammeter, you can manually log power usage, but without power factor correction your readings will be of apparent power. When blowers and compressors start, there will be a transient "spike" of
power as the motor begins to rotate.These transients are difficult to quantify without a more advanced piece of equipment. After the spike disappeesrs the current draw is easy to measure.

10-27-17, 08:30 PM	#12
ecomodded Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Vancouver Island,Canada. Posts: 1,037 Thanks: 116 Thanked 100 Times in 87 Posts	It sounds pretty straight forward I should read up the install options and find out whats best for a small system __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

10-28-17, 03:34 PM	#13
ecomodded Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Vancouver Island,Canada. Posts: 1,037 Thanks: 116 Thanked 100 Times in 87 Posts	Its sounding like the larger the loop the more efficient the system is. Makes me think it would be good run a 9000Btu heat pump in a 12000btu outdoor loop or bigger with a large indoor loop under the floor. This way the water does not have to get as warm to be useful. A steady COP 4 would be a nice goal to reach __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

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10-27-17, 08:08 PM	#11
jeff5may Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: elizabethtown, ky, USA Posts: 2,431 Thanks: 431 Thanked 619 Times in 517 Posts	3/4inch pipe is like 3 gallons per 100 feet of length.

11-22-17, 09:31 AM	#16
WyrTwister Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: USA Posts: 543 Thanks: 6 Thanked 44 Times in 38 Posts	Can you remote mount / relocate the thermostat sensor on the converted unit ? You are comparing your re-purposed unit to a purpose built heat pump ? Both 1 ton ? Can you compare the heat output ? If the re-purposed unit is using twice as much electricity , but putting out twice the amount of heat , you are not being hurt . Happy Thanksgiving to you all , :-) Wyr God bless

11-29-17, 07:14 AM	#17
Ron342 Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Maryland Posts: 120 Thanks: 26 Thanked 12 Times in 8 Posts	Figuring your machine's heat output and the corresponding electricity used so you have some idea how good your machine is doing has always been a problem for me, particularly for the air output rigs- tough to figure the airflow in and out even if the in/out temps are easy. Sounds like you have a water output condenser so that would be easier - buy a $12 Chinese flowmeter and check the in/out temps and you have your btu output. Sometimes I just measure the flow rate and temp difference of the in and out loop water temps and use that to figure the btu output. Then there's the problem of figuring the watts used - I guess you could trip the breakers on every circuit but the one you're using for the heat pump and read your utility meter but I wonder how accurate they are and that resets every gadget in your house. I have a killerwatt usage meter but they only read 120v and most larger heat pumps run on 240v. I've tried using my clamp meter to get the 240 v amps used by each 240v phase but then wondered if I should multiply the clamp meter amps times the voltage to get watts or if I should add the amps of each phase together times the voltage? Then am I reading rms amps and is that the right reading to multiply by the rms voltage? Anyone do this for a living??

11-29-17, 11:12 PM	#18
jeff5may Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: elizabethtown, ky, USA Posts: 2,431 Thanks: 431 Thanked 619 Times in 517 Posts	Ok so if you look around the web for a minute, you will find that there are lots of power usage meters made for 220 to 240 VAC. Over in Europe, most countries have higher voltage at every outlet. Another good model is TED: the energy detective. If you have a decent ammeter, you can manually log power usage, but without power factor correction your readings will be of apparent power. When blowers and compressors start, there will be a transient "spike" of power as the motor begins to rotate.These transients are difficult to quantify without a more advanced piece of equipment. After the spike disappeesrs the current draw is easy to measure.