24000 BTU AC Unit conversion to geothermal well water source - Page 5

jeff5may · 11-24-16, 10:03 PM

No, you want to find soft annealed copper pipe and bend it cold! Common refrigeration interconnect lineset tubing is perfect for forming. Not the same material as hard water pipe.

After some amount of bending or extrusion, the pipes will harden. At this point, it's difficult to work with. If the tubing is heated, you have to have inert gas inside it so it won't rust. Next level of difficulty kind of process. Keep on with your research and development and figure out something you are comfortable with producing yourself BEFORE you spend any extra time or money!

What I would do given your situation is to get the stock setup rigged up with taps on the suction, discharge and liquid lines. I would definitely stick some valves into the plumbing for flow control, mainly to be able to cut the outdoor fan and heat exchanger flow if I needed to. THEN I WOULD RUN IT LIKE I STOLE IT.

After I trusted it to work and not die in a short time, THEN I would bother to try to improve it. If it gets too cold outside for it to work, just shut it down. The main idea here is that you will learn a lot about the unit just getting it up and running like usual. Once you have run the unit and have done some tests on it, you will develop a basis of comparison for it. The whole project will build your confidence in what you are doing is valuable. Plus, it will work fine for 3 seasons of the year, and begin to pay for itself.

The plate heat exchanger referenced this time is much closer to what you will need to do the job. 50 plates may be over sized, maybe 30 or 40 plates of the same series would be enough. Probably not very cheap either.

I agree completely with Randy. These things aren't heavy and expensive for no reason. Anything you build has to work like a brick or an anvil or it will die violently. Murphy's law bites hard in this realm. More important than the material cost, it takes a high level of perfection, determination and mental toughness that not many people possess. Just look at the disasters that most of us have had building this stuff! Falling on your face and having to start all over again is common.

b420ady · 11-25-16, 12:43 AM

I have found some Mitsubishi heat pumps here:
https://eastshop.ro/aer-conditionat/...FS4o0wodrGwOug

I m wondering what COP they will have at -25 Celsius

jeff5may · 11-25-16, 11:06 PM

Here's a couple of years ago document for the hyper heat lineup.

http://www.mitsubishipro.com/media/2...h_brochure.pdf

I imagine the units have changed a little for the better since then. The city multi (at least) uses a dual stage scroll compressor with an intermediate tap to allow 'hyperheat' mode. This mode of operation has been copied by other oem's for airsource units designed for cold climate operation. Basically, they short circuit part of the scroll, injecting cool gas to boost heat output. The trick works well, and the indoor unit puts out lots of heat at super low outdoor temperatures. There is a downside, though: the mode murders energy efficiency. Not quite as bad as running backup electric heaters, but the colder it gets outside, the more boost needed to provide heat and the more the EER takes a beating.

A few members have installed these type of systems lately, and have been logging and blogging away about them. Look around the forum and you will find them.

b420ady · 11-26-16, 08:15 AM

I ve just found a second hand Mitsubishi 30000 BTU heat pump, the price is 400 USD

but I don t have that right now even thou it will be a permanent fix for my heating needs

I wait to find out exactly what model it is, but I still don t know how to get funds for it

randen · 11-26-16, 01:50 PM

B420ady

Thats a good find. I would say you would never be able to hack a heat-pump for less and actually get any reliable performance. There are so many unanswered questions. What are you heating with now? What the costs are for your current space heating. Natual gas prices? Electrical cost? Do you burn wood??

Heat-pumps are very efficient. Like all machines they have pros and cons. Durning the really cold snaps the electric elements will need to heat your space but the amount of energy you save for the more temperate weather more than makes up for that.

As opposed to a furnace or other forms of space heating you will have cooling for the summer.

Maybe you can barter for the heat-pump. A little money plus I don't know, home repair, garden work, some sort of trade.

I have a friend that works all sorts of deals Traded a guitar for a kayak he has all sorts of fun just trading people. VERY COOL

Just a though. I hope you can get there!!!!

Randen

jeff5may · 11-26-16, 03:54 PM

The Mr. Slim you pictured looks like one of the older models. It doesn't have the hyper-heat sticker on it, so it will lose capacity below freezing. If it is an inverter model, it can over-rev the compressor up to about 150% to try to keep up, so down to freezing, it will hold its own. Below 0 degC, it will lose capacity, and at -25 degC it might put out half its rated capacity.

If it's not an inverter unit, all bets are off. You will need backup heating below about -10 degC. Can't really tell by looking at the box. Mr. Slim units have looked pretty similar for the last 25 years, especially the outdoor units. Reading the nameplate and looking up the model number is the easiest way to tell what lives in the box.

You can get a lot of second-hand insulation for that much money.

b420ady · 11-27-16, 12:28 AM

I wait for more details about the unit from the seller, it has a few more to sell , other brands and sizes so I don t think he will be interested in something else than money

Indeed for 400 USD I cannot find something better, even thou this unit its one off the first generation of MR. SLIM from Mitsubishi and I think the COP at 5 F or so will be about 2.1 but for sure it will get me over the winter using the secondary heater (back to COP 1

as I m right now)

b420ady · 11-27-16, 01:12 AM

Outdoor unit: MUH-30SV
indoor unit: MSH-30SV

He also offers 3 years warranty for the unit if he does the installation.

http://www.mitsubi****ech.co.uk/Data.../MSH-RV_SM.PDF

jeff5may · 11-27-16, 07:27 PM

OK, here we are, right back at page 1 or 2 of the discussion again. The Mr. Slim model you crave isn't much bigger or better than the model you found for $50. Both are R-22 units, both are single speed compressor, both will lose capacity as outdoor temperatures fall. Both units fall on their face below -9 degC outdoors. The mitsi looks to have been decommissioned and stored better, maybe somebody shined it up before they tore it down.

If seller installs the mitsi, and you try to modify anything, there goes your package warranty deal. Are the red diamonds and word of mouth worth the money you might not have today anyway? We don't know, but it sure is getting cold outside...

Quick and dirty page you seek:
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/69...page=15#manual
The msh-30rv service manual is easy to find. The units didn't change much at all until the -wv came out. It runs off R410a, so the plumbing changed but not the specs. Then they came out with the hyper heat models and everything changed.

b420ady · 11-27-16, 08:54 PM

Thans Jeff for saying that because I did not had a chance to find the manual for this model and could not find the specs online and I was hopping that if it says MR SLIM on it there is a big chance that it might have something like hyperheat to help it out in the winter or at least a variable speed compressor... now I don t suffer anymore because I cannot afford it at the moment so thank you

11-24-16, 10:03 PM	#41
jeff5may Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: elizabethtown, ky, USA Posts: 2,428 Thanks: 431 Thanked 619 Times in 517 Posts	No, you want to find soft annealed copper pipe and bend it cold! Common refrigeration interconnect lineset tubing is perfect for forming. Not the same material as hard water pipe. After some amount of bending or extrusion, the pipes will harden. At this point, it's difficult to work with. If the tubing is heated, you have to have inert gas inside it so it won't rust. Next level of difficulty kind of process. Keep on with your research and development and figure out something you are comfortable with producing yourself BEFORE you spend any extra time or money! What I would do given your situation is to get the stock setup rigged up with taps on the suction, discharge and liquid lines. I would definitely stick some valves into the plumbing for flow control, mainly to be able to cut the outdoor fan and heat exchanger flow if I needed to. THEN I WOULD RUN IT LIKE I STOLE IT. After I trusted it to work and not die in a short time, THEN I would bother to try to improve it. If it gets too cold outside for it to work, just shut it down. The main idea here is that you will learn a lot about the unit just getting it up and running like usual. Once you have run the unit and have done some tests on it, you will develop a basis of comparison for it. The whole project will build your confidence in what you are doing is valuable. Plus, it will work fine for 3 seasons of the year, and begin to pay for itself. The plate heat exchanger referenced this time is much closer to what you will need to do the job. 50 plates may be over sized, maybe 30 or 40 plates of the same series would be enough. Probably not very cheap either. I agree completely with Randy. These things aren't heavy and expensive for no reason. Anything you build has to work like a brick or an anvil or it will die violently. Murphy's law bites hard in this realm. More important than the material cost, it takes a high level of perfection, determination and mental toughness that not many people possess. Just look at the disasters that most of us have had building this stuff! Falling on your face and having to start all over again is common. Last edited by jeff5may; 11-24-16 at 11:36 PM..

11-25-16, 11:06 PM	#43
jeff5may Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: elizabethtown, ky, USA Posts: 2,428 Thanks: 431 Thanked 619 Times in 517 Posts	Here's a couple of years ago document for the hyper heat lineup. http://www.mitsubishipro.com/media/2...h_brochure.pdf I imagine the units have changed a little for the better since then. The city multi (at least) uses a dual stage scroll compressor with an intermediate tap to allow 'hyperheat' mode. This mode of operation has been copied by other oem's for airsource units designed for cold climate operation. Basically, they short circuit part of the scroll, injecting cool gas to boost heat output. The trick works well, and the indoor unit puts out lots of heat at super low outdoor temperatures. There is a downside, though: the mode murders energy efficiency. Not quite as bad as running backup electric heaters, but the colder it gets outside, the more boost needed to provide heat and the more the EER takes a beating. A few members have installed these type of systems lately, and have been logging and blogging away about them. Look around the forum and you will find them. Last edited by jeff5may; 11-25-16 at 11:55 PM..

11-27-16, 01:12 AM	#48
b420ady Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Romania Posts: 47 Thanks: 19 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Outdoor unit: MUH-30SV indoor unit: MSH-30SV He also offers 3 years warranty for the unit if he does the installation. http://www.mitsubi****ech.co.uk/Data.../MSH-RV_SM.PDF Attached Thumbnails

11-27-16, 07:27 PM	#49
jeff5may Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: elizabethtown, ky, USA Posts: 2,428 Thanks: 431 Thanked 619 Times in 517 Posts	OK, here we are, right back at page 1 or 2 of the discussion again. The Mr. Slim model you crave isn't much bigger or better than the model you found for $50. Both are R-22 units, both are single speed compressor, both will lose capacity as outdoor temperatures fall. Both units fall on their face below -9 degC outdoors. The mitsi looks to have been decommissioned and stored better, maybe somebody shined it up before they tore it down. If seller installs the mitsi, and you try to modify anything, there goes your package warranty deal. Are the red diamonds and word of mouth worth the money you might not have today anyway? We don't know, but it sure is getting cold outside... Quick and dirty page you seek: https://www.manualslib.com/manual/69...page=15#manual The msh-30rv service manual is easy to find. The units didn't change much at all until the -wv came out. It runs off R410a, so the plumbing changed but not the specs. Then they came out with the hyper heat models and everything changed. Last edited by jeff5may; 11-27-16 at 11:10 PM..

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11-25-16, 12:43 AM	#42
b420ady Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Romania Posts: 47 Thanks: 19 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have found some Mitsubishi heat pumps here: https://eastshop.ro/aer-conditionat/...FS4o0wodrGwOug I m wondering what COP they will have at -25 Celsius

11-26-16, 08:15 AM	#44
b420ady Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Romania Posts: 47 Thanks: 19 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I ve just found a second hand Mitsubishi 30000 BTU heat pump, the price is 400 USD but I don t have that right now even thou it will be a permanent fix for my heating needs I wait to find out exactly what model it is, but I still don t know how to get funds for it

11-26-16, 01:50 PM	#45
randen Uber EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Strathroy Ontario Canada Posts: 657 Thanks: 9 Thanked 191 Times in 129 Posts	B420ady Thats a good find. I would say you would never be able to hack a heat-pump for less and actually get any reliable performance. There are so many unanswered questions. What are you heating with now? What the costs are for your current space heating. Natual gas prices? Electrical cost? Do you burn wood?? Heat-pumps are very efficient. Like all machines they have pros and cons. Durning the really cold snaps the electric elements will need to heat your space but the amount of energy you save for the more temperate weather more than makes up for that. As opposed to a furnace or other forms of space heating you will have cooling for the summer. Maybe you can barter for the heat-pump. A little money plus I don't know, home repair, garden work, some sort of trade. I have a friend that works all sorts of deals Traded a guitar for a kayak he has all sorts of fun just trading people. VERY COOL Just a though. I hope you can get there!!!! Randen

11-26-16, 03:54 PM	#46
jeff5may Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: elizabethtown, ky, USA Posts: 2,428 Thanks: 431 Thanked 619 Times in 517 Posts	The Mr. Slim you pictured looks like one of the older models. It doesn't have the hyper-heat sticker on it, so it will lose capacity below freezing. If it is an inverter model, it can over-rev the compressor up to about 150% to try to keep up, so down to freezing, it will hold its own. Below 0 degC, it will lose capacity, and at -25 degC it might put out half its rated capacity. If it's not an inverter unit, all bets are off. You will need backup heating below about -10 degC. Can't really tell by looking at the box. Mr. Slim units have looked pretty similar for the last 25 years, especially the outdoor units. Reading the nameplate and looking up the model number is the easiest way to tell what lives in the box. You can get a lot of second-hand insulation for that much money.

11-27-16, 12:28 AM	#47
b420ady Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Romania Posts: 47 Thanks: 19 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I wait for more details about the unit from the seller, it has a few more to sell , other brands and sizes so I don t think he will be interested in something else than money Indeed for 400 USD I cannot find something better, even thou this unit its one off the first generation of MR. SLIM from Mitsubishi and I think the COP at 5 F or so will be about 2.1 but for sure it will get me over the winter using the secondary heater (back to COP 1 as I m right now)

11-27-16, 08:54 PM	#50
b420ady Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Romania Posts: 47 Thanks: 19 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thans Jeff for saying that because I did not had a chance to find the manual for this model and could not find the specs online and I was hopping that if it says MR SLIM on it there is a big chance that it might have something like hyperheat to help it out in the winter or at least a variable speed compressor... now I don t suffer anymore because I cannot afford it at the moment so thank you