I need an introduction to Solar Power - Page 3

Xringer · 09-26-11, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ireene

The concept of solar energy can be illuminated in one single line...!
it means all the power we ever needed to run our appliances, machines, industries....is right above our head....

we have just started, its still a long way ahead...!

Not exactly overhead. It's 93 million miles or 149 668 992 km from here..
And, there is a major problem of up front cost.
It's not just the PV hardware, it's the land and the actual location of the PV.
Not everyone owns a roof. Many of those who do own or rent a roof,
will find it's not in a suitable location.
The town we lived in when we were renting, Somerville MA has 19,000 people per square mile.
I know.. 27,878,400 sq feet / 19,000 = 1,467 sq feet each.
But, you would have to cover the whole town completely with PV..

IMHO, the folks down at city hall and in the state house should start looking
at the electrical power wasted in government buildings and schools etc.
Massive bills, us local tax payers are paying every month.

It's really upsetting to see many millions of dollars spent on a brand new schools,
without any consideration to the amount of power they will be using.
But, those taxpayer-paid 'employees' just look at working people
as an endless source of cash, and don't even think about things like CFLs..

creeky · 09-29-11, 05:23 PM

@gasstingy. If your system will generate 40kw and you use 15, you'll be making some money. Nice. Here in Ontario the microfit program is not really as good as it looks. The upfront costs are higher than forecast with the "made in Ontario" provision keeping panel prices artificially high (around 2.40). The tax situation (GST rebated back to producer) has been misrepresented by the province. People were told they'd get the GST portion back, but the GST people are saying, Nope. Think 5% of 80k.

Similarly, we don't pay 12 cents a watt. We pay 12 cents a watt, plus a delivery fee, and a debt pay down fee, and taxes ...

The best solar options are still hot water and windows. A well insulated home will pay off way faster than solar. And there's a guy online, nasolarsolutions.com that has hot water for under 400 bucks. Simple, but a great way to cut down on the biggest energy consumer in your home. At least in the summer.

Still, with the Chinese saying panel prices will fall to 25 cents a watt, well the economics will just keep getting better.

herlichka · 09-30-11, 08:10 AM

The Ontario government is paying a premium price per Kw/h and specifying "made in Ontario" in order to stimulate growth in the manufacturing industry, which will eventually lead to lower prices and broader range of products. Another benefit of the "made in Ontario" spec is that we can be assured that the manufacture of these products is done in an environmentally responsible manner, many (I'm sure not all) Asian manufacturers operate with few, or no environmental regulations. There is also the logic of using a "green" product that has to be shipped from the other side of the world.

Another feature of the MicroFIT programme is that it is not a net metering situation, you get paid the premium rate for every Kw/h you produce, you pay for what you use through a separate meter.

The GST, now called the Harmonized Sales Tax (HST, a blend of Federal and Ontario sales tax) is paid on pretty much every item or service that we buy.

And, lastly, although I haven't looked at my hydro bills since the "Time of Use" billing began in June, they really haven't changed. Over the last couple of years I have taken the ocasional bill and divided the bottom line total amount, the energy charge, carrier costs, debt retirement, GST/HST, by the actual Kw/h used, and it always comes out to about 12-12 1/2 cents per Kw/h.

Wouldn't it be nice if Ontario had a strong,and competitive solar industry, and was projecting pricing at 25 cents per watt, rather than the Chinese?

herlichka · 09-30-11, 09:03 AM

I should probably take a minute to clarify my position about Ontario's Microfit programme, as I have written positive things about it in a number of Posts, and some of you may be wondering.

I am an "enthusiast", an observer for the most part, although I do have two small PV arrays. They would probably be characterized as hobby, or novelty systems. I have been to a couple of meetings at a local group known as "Simcoe Huronia Association for Renewable Energy" (S.H.A.R.E.), and have studied small PV systems and applications. I am not, in any way, involved in the commercial PV industry.

I am a fan of the MicroFIT programme, I think that has amazing possibilities. It has been in place, in it's current form for about two years, and I am seeing it develop before my eyes. I live in Simcoe County, in Southern Ontario, and I would say that within 25 Km of my home there are probably 20 systems that I know of. Some are roof mounted, some are fixed ground arrays, and suprisingly, there are a lot of ground arrays with trackers. At an average size of 10 Kw, that represents approx. 200 Kw of production. And there are more and more going up all the time.

My personal goal is to have a small PV array on the roof, feeding a small battery bank and inverter, to supply my residential lighting, and possibly some other tasks such as my television, computer. I have read that residential lighting can account for about 15% of a home's electrical consumption, although I'm sure that figure is going down with the increased use of CFLs, and LEDs, and I think that it is a realistic way of reducing my utility bills. Plus, during power outages, I will still have light.

gasstingy · 09-30-11, 10:20 AM

Herlichka, Good for you, and I mean that sincerely. I started out by wanting to do "something" to make a little bit of a difference. It is kind of addictive {at least to me} and I want more. FWIW, I would seriously consider a ground mount or pole mount on a tracker in your location, unless you have easy access to your roof for snow removal when needed. Just my $0.02.

herlichka · 09-30-11, 10:51 AM

I wholeheartedly agree with you, it's become something of an addiction, or maybe an obsession!! I've made it something of a teaching tool, for the time I spend with my grand kids.

I'm a bit of a scrounger. Two years ago I was involved in the demolition of an old building that had a satellite dish in the roof for data transmission for an ATM. The dish was mounted on a ballast type of assembly, it is a galvanized steel assembly that uses concrete building blocks on 4 legs, and has a vertical section of 2 1/2 galvanized pipe that that stands about 40". This will be my mount, I have a section of flat roof that has excellent solar exposure. I have a neighbour who works in the marine industry, and he has brought me a collection of salvaged deep cycle batteries. Boat owners will often replace all the batteries at once, rather than replacing just the worn out ones! I am getting there slowly!!

I have "cherry picked" some of the other items as they come on sale, a small charge controller, and a 450w inverter.

I have also been collecting 1/2 copper pipe, salvaged mostly from renovation jobs. You really don't want to re-use it for potable water, but I'm getting ready to put a solar hot water together for the kid's pool!

If I can get a tutorial on uploading photos I'll start posting them!!

Daox · 09-30-11, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by herlichka

If I can get a tutorial on uploading photos I'll start posting them!!

Here ya go:
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/forum-...-pictures.html

creeky · 09-30-11, 03:52 PM

Okay, I'm off grid and haven't looked at an electric bill in awhile, so I stand corrected on the cost of electricity in Ontario. 12.5 cents it is.

I am also a fan of the microfit program. It is a great program for farmers. Niagara Falls was once considered a boondoggle and yet it led Ontario into the age of manufacturing. And if we're going to subsidize an industry it might as well be owned by the families of Ontario.

Still, the economics of Ontario's Microfit have, so far, simply not been proven. I mean 15,000 jobs sounds like a lot. But consider that the National Energy Policy of the 80s cost 90,000 jobs ... and that we're not actually manufacturing vertically, more like last minute assemblers of stuff actually manufactured elsewhere ... I'm wondering where the "industry" is going to come from.

This is what I dislike about government mandated programs. The NEP was a disaster. It killed jobs in Alberta and after oil prices "normalized" it killed jobs in Ontario; as the industries that were protected by the NEP were now competing with companies that had reduced their energy costs. And Ontario, not having had to adapt became too expensive and vamoose, jobs left the province.

Dang, ain't hindsight great!

kind of like emoticons.

what I like is all us "little guys" sitting around and developing our own PV electrical systems. Sure insulation and hot water are the best ways to start saving money, but PV is about having cool stuff! That works!

PS-thx Daox for the Pictures post. Am taking pictures of my "power shed" in progress. And will start to post.

09-30-11, 08:10 AM	#23
herlichka Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Simcoe County, Ontario, Canada Posts: 102 Thanks: 11 Thanked 15 Times in 10 Posts	The Ontario government is paying a premium price per Kw/h and specifying "made in Ontario" in order to stimulate growth in the manufacturing industry, which will eventually lead to lower prices and broader range of products. Another benefit of the "made in Ontario" spec is that we can be assured that the manufacture of these products is done in an environmentally responsible manner, many (I'm sure not all) Asian manufacturers operate with few, or no environmental regulations. There is also the logic of using a "green" product that has to be shipped from the other side of the world. Another feature of the MicroFIT programme is that it is not a net metering situation, you get paid the premium rate for every Kw/h you produce, you pay for what you use through a separate meter. The GST, now called the Harmonized Sales Tax (HST, a blend of Federal and Ontario sales tax) is paid on pretty much every item or service that we buy. And, lastly, although I haven't looked at my hydro bills since the "Time of Use" billing began in June, they really haven't changed. Over the last couple of years I have taken the ocasional bill and divided the bottom line total amount, the energy charge, carrier costs, debt retirement, GST/HST, by the actual Kw/h used, and it always comes out to about 12-12 1/2 cents per Kw/h. Wouldn't it be nice if Ontario had a strong,and competitive solar industry, and was projecting pricing at 25 cents per watt, rather than the Chinese? Last edited by herlichka; 09-30-11 at 08:12 AM.. Reason: Spelling

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09-29-11, 05:23 PM	#22
creeky Journeyman EcoRenovator Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: a field somewhere Posts: 304 Thanks: 64 Thanked 44 Times in 31 Posts	@gasstingy. If your system will generate 40kw and you use 15, you'll be making some money. Nice. Here in Ontario the microfit program is not really as good as it looks. The upfront costs are higher than forecast with the "made in Ontario" provision keeping panel prices artificially high (around 2.40). The tax situation (GST rebated back to producer) has been misrepresented by the province. People were told they'd get the GST portion back, but the GST people are saying, Nope. Think 5% of 80k. Similarly, we don't pay 12 cents a watt. We pay 12 cents a watt, plus a delivery fee, and a debt pay down fee, and taxes ... The best solar options are still hot water and windows. A well insulated home will pay off way faster than solar. And there's a guy online, nasolarsolutions.com that has hot water for under 400 bucks. Simple, but a great way to cut down on the biggest energy consumer in your home. At least in the summer. Still, with the Chinese saying panel prices will fall to 25 cents a watt, well the economics will just keep getting better.

09-30-11, 09:03 AM	#24
herlichka Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Simcoe County, Ontario, Canada Posts: 102 Thanks: 11 Thanked 15 Times in 10 Posts	I should probably take a minute to clarify my position about Ontario's Microfit programme, as I have written positive things about it in a number of Posts, and some of you may be wondering. I am an "enthusiast", an observer for the most part, although I do have two small PV arrays. They would probably be characterized as hobby, or novelty systems. I have been to a couple of meetings at a local group known as "Simcoe Huronia Association for Renewable Energy" (S.H.A.R.E.), and have studied small PV systems and applications. I am not, in any way, involved in the commercial PV industry. I am a fan of the MicroFIT programme, I think that has amazing possibilities. It has been in place, in it's current form for about two years, and I am seeing it develop before my eyes. I live in Simcoe County, in Southern Ontario, and I would say that within 25 Km of my home there are probably 20 systems that I know of. Some are roof mounted, some are fixed ground arrays, and suprisingly, there are a lot of ground arrays with trackers. At an average size of 10 Kw, that represents approx. 200 Kw of production. And there are more and more going up all the time. My personal goal is to have a small PV array on the roof, feeding a small battery bank and inverter, to supply my residential lighting, and possibly some other tasks such as my television, computer. I have read that residential lighting can account for about 15% of a home's electrical consumption, although I'm sure that figure is going down with the increased use of CFLs, and LEDs, and I think that it is a realistic way of reducing my utility bills. Plus, during power outages, I will still have light.

09-30-11, 10:20 AM	#25
gasstingy Journeyman EcoRenovator Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Arab, AL Posts: 491 Thanks: 109 Thanked 49 Times in 43 Posts	Herlichka, Good for you, and I mean that sincerely. I started out by wanting to do "something" to make a little bit of a difference. It is kind of addictive {at least to me} and I want more. FWIW, I would seriously consider a ground mount or pole mount on a tracker in your location, unless you have easy access to your roof for snow removal when needed. Just my $0.02.

09-30-11, 10:51 AM	#26
herlichka Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Simcoe County, Ontario, Canada Posts: 102 Thanks: 11 Thanked 15 Times in 10 Posts	I wholeheartedly agree with you, it's become something of an addiction, or maybe an obsession!! I've made it something of a teaching tool, for the time I spend with my grand kids. I'm a bit of a scrounger. Two years ago I was involved in the demolition of an old building that had a satellite dish in the roof for data transmission for an ATM. The dish was mounted on a ballast type of assembly, it is a galvanized steel assembly that uses concrete building blocks on 4 legs, and has a vertical section of 2 1/2 galvanized pipe that that stands about 40". This will be my mount, I have a section of flat roof that has excellent solar exposure. I have a neighbour who works in the marine industry, and he has brought me a collection of salvaged deep cycle batteries. Boat owners will often replace all the batteries at once, rather than replacing just the worn out ones! I am getting there slowly!! I have "cherry picked" some of the other items as they come on sale, a small charge controller, and a 450w inverter. I have also been collecting 1/2 copper pipe, salvaged mostly from renovation jobs. You really don't want to re-use it for potable water, but I'm getting ready to put a solar hot water together for the kid's pool! If I can get a tutorial on uploading photos I'll start posting them!!

09-30-11, 03:52 PM	#28
creeky Journeyman EcoRenovator Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: a field somewhere Posts: 304 Thanks: 64 Thanked 44 Times in 31 Posts	Okay, I'm off grid and haven't looked at an electric bill in awhile, so I stand corrected on the cost of electricity in Ontario. 12.5 cents it is. I am also a fan of the microfit program. It is a great program for farmers. Niagara Falls was once considered a boondoggle and yet it led Ontario into the age of manufacturing. And if we're going to subsidize an industry it might as well be owned by the families of Ontario. Still, the economics of Ontario's Microfit have, so far, simply not been proven. I mean 15,000 jobs sounds like a lot. But consider that the National Energy Policy of the 80s cost 90,000 jobs ... and that we're not actually manufacturing vertically, more like last minute assemblers of stuff actually manufactured elsewhere ... I'm wondering where the "industry" is going to come from. This is what I dislike about government mandated programs. The NEP was a disaster. It killed jobs in Alberta and after oil prices "normalized" it killed jobs in Ontario; as the industries that were protected by the NEP were now competing with companies that had reduced their energy costs. And Ontario, not having had to adapt became too expensive and vamoose, jobs left the province. Dang, ain't hindsight great! kind of like emoticons. what I like is all us "little guys" sitting around and developing our own PV electrical systems. Sure insulation and hot water are the best ways to start saving money, but PV is about having cool stuff! That works! PS-thx Daox for the Pictures post. Am taking pictures of my "power shed" in progress. And will start to post.