Propane (R-290) for heat pumps?

[Xringer]

Yeah, multiply your R22 load by 0.4 and it's your R290 load.
It sure seems like the R290 is a drop-in replacement for R22, pressure wise too..

[kbonk]

Ha ha, just went to visit these guys,( refrigerantguys.com) they are a US distributor of a Italian company, will be importing new European refrigerants, talked about r 600, maybe r744 too?

[Xringer]

I got my R410A from those guys. The sell on Ebay and their prices don't seem to be unreasonable,
compared to a few others I checked out..
I like the company, their support is pretty good.

R600 sounds interesting. It should cost a little less than R410A..
But, how will the price compare to DIY filtered & dried BBQ gas??

R744 (CO2) will be illegal in the USA soon. Unless the current regime is kicked out.

I can't see using CO2, it's pressures are a lot higher than R410A, which is a high pressure gas.


This a tank chart. On the bottom, it's how full the tank is..
If a tank of C02 is 60% full, and the temp is 120 deg F,
the tank's pressure shoots up to 1400 PSI..
At room temp (70F), it's okay.. Around 850 psi.. Good for paintball shooting..

[Ko_deZ]

CO2 can be used, but only in high thermal difference sites, the return temperature on the high side must be quite low. It will be working without phase shift, but can then give COP of 10 or above in good conditions. They run in supercritical mode using the Lorentz Cycle, described here:
Supercritical carbon dioxide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Heat pump - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The pressure is insane though. If you worry about Propane, this is not for you :-p

[Xringer]

CO2 pressures are not so insane, my air rifles use 200 and 300 bar.

I don't understand phase change all that well, (I just know it works)
to understand how CO2 could work in a heat pump system, without
changing from liquid to gas.. And back.
I've seen what happens when CO2 gets too warm or too confined.
And it seems like Propane would be safer, pressure wise.
I'll have to do some reading..

Propane is an alternative refrigerant with both a good and bad side.
It's the one I would use if I had no other good choice.

Edit:
http://www.annex32.net/pdf/presentat...yoto_Stene.pdf
I was just skimming this Annex 32 paper and saw this explanation..

"3. ANALYSIS OF INTEGRATED CO2 HEAT PUMPS FOR RESIDENCES
Carbon dioxide (CO2, R744) has an especially low critical temperature (31.1ºC) and high critical pressure (73.8 bar). As a consequence, the operating pressure in CO2 heat pump systems will typically be 5 to 10 times higher than that of HFC systems, i.e. 20 to 40 bar in the evaporator and 80 to 130 bar during heat rejection. Due to the low critical temperature most CO2 heat pumps operate in a so-called transcritical cycle with evaporation at subcritical pressure and heat rejection at supercritical pressure (p>73.8 bar).

Unlike a subcritical heat pump cycle, heat is not given off by means of condensation of the working fluid in a condenser but by cooling of high-pressure CO2 gas in a heat exchanger (gas cooler). The temperature drop for the CO2 gas during heat rejection is denoted the temperature glide. Figure 3.1 shows the principle of the transcritical CO2 heat pump cycle in a Temperature-Enthalpy diagram. "

It seems (to me) that a CO2 ASHP hotwater heater's layout and function
would be somewhat similar to a mini-split in heating mode.
Where the IDU's coil (inside a water tank) would be the highest pressure
(highest temperature) in the loop.
The pressure would drop inside the outdoor HX, where it would pick up
heat from the air flow..

[AC_Hacker]

Originally Posted by Xringer

R744 (CO2) will be illegal in the USA soon. Unless the current regime is kicked out.

Xringer, this is total disinformation, and you know it.

If you think this is true, prove it.

-AC_Hacker

[Xringer]

Originally Posted by AC_Hacker

Xringer, this is total disinformation, and you know it.

If you think this is true, prove it.

-AC_Hacker

When you see one of these ending a line of text, it's to be interpreted as Sarcasm.

Like this:
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_sd4aOA0Ur-I/Sx...umb%5B1%5D.jpg

And this:
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_sd4aOA0Ur-I/Sx...ity%5B5%5D.jpg

[AC_Hacker]

Originally Posted by Xringer

When you see one of these ending a line of text, it's to be interpreted as Sarcasm.

I think what you really mean is sarcastic disinformation.

-AC_Hacker

[Xringer]

Maybe I'm trying to start a CO2 Truther Faction..?.

If Sanyo has been making CO2 compressors for over 10 years (and inverter models since 2005),
What is a CO2 compressor? | CO2 Compressors | Compressors HOME | SANYO

Why isn't my Mini-Split running on CO2??

[AC_Hacker]

Originally Posted by Xringer

Maybe I'm trying to start a CO2 Truther Faction..?.

Even this statement is disinformation.

You are flattering yourself if you imagine that you are a 'truther'.

There is nothing truthful about:

Originally Posted by Xringer

R744 (CO2) will be illegal in the USA soon. Unless the current regime is kicked out.

Whether you cut-and-pasted this disinformation, or whether you were clever enough to invent your own disinformation, purely and simply it is still disinformation.

To abuse a forum where people come to get actual, true and useful information about reducing their energy consumption, for your purposes of passing on undigested disinformation, or worse yet, generating your own disinformation, is an insult.

* * *

At one point, the Webmaster of EcoRenovator wanted to move all of the posts that pertained to R-290 from the 'Manifesto' thread and put them all into this thread, that you started. I countered that idea, because even in the beginning, I could see that there would be very little useful, practical information regarding the use of R-290 here, and I didn't want useful information to get drowned out in useless information.

Thirteen pages later, I'm glad I made the correct call.

-AC_Hacker