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Old 07-14-12, 10:09 AM   #1261
charlesfl
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I found a company that does various types of drilling that I thought might be of interest.
They have developed a slightly different method of drilling for geothermal heat pump that could be used by some here. Also they did some tests that showed that a coaxial heat exchanger pipe in the ground would be more efficient and easier to install than the u-pipe currently being used. I will include some web sites to explore. Also there are some videos that explain very well.

The innovative GRD system - TRACTO-TECHNIK GmbH & Co. KG

TRACTO-TECHNIK - The only choice for perfect pipe installations - TRACTO-TECHNIK GmbH & Co. KG

Tracto-Technik TV

http://www.tracto-technik.de/doks/pd...gleich_EN1.pdf

Hope these work. Charlesfl

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Old 07-14-12, 03:37 PM   #1262
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Correction, the listing for the BPHE listed above was incorrect in claiming 5kw on r-22. I just stumbled across some of my research that showed them as being 1.5kw units with a 20* delta.
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Old 07-18-12, 10:18 AM   #1263
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Just an FYI on refrigerant oils. A/C components are not drastically different from each other-made from the same things to do the same jobs, just optimized for the pressures and flow for that specific system. Different oils are miscible with different refrigerants. This is the main reason for different oils-the oil has to be reliably carried around the refrigerant loop using the refrigerant as a solvent so it doesn't pool in one place, possibly starving the compressor of lubrication. The different oils all lubricate moving parts appreciably well, so that's not the issue.

During the R12 to R134a auto air conditioner retrofit boom, we all originally thought that all the mineral oil had to be removed otherwise catastrophe would result. As it turns out, it is ok to leave the majority of the mineral oil in the system, as long as the required amount of the new lubricant that is miscible with the new refrigerant is added and the volume of remaining oil doesn't take up so much space to cause problems (usually not an issue). The non-miscible oil just gets pushed around the system along with the miscible oil and refrigerant. I have personally kept tabs on hundreds of retrofits with nothing other than a dryer/fitting/labeling change and the addition of the correct oil-no failures due to the retrofit.

If the components work ok within the operating characteristics of the changed system, the desiccant/dryer (if installed) is compatible with the new refrigerant/oil, and the proper oil for the refrigerant is added, I think you are unlikely to see problems with refrigerant conversions.
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Old 07-18-12, 01:03 PM   #1264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobile Master Tech View Post
During the R12 to R134a auto air conditioner retrofit boom, we all originally thought that all the mineral oil had to be removed otherwise catastrophe would result. As it turns out, it is ok to leave the majority of the mineral oil in the system, as long as the required amount of the new lubricant that is miscible with the new refrigerant is added and the volume of remaining oil doesn't take up so much space to cause problems (usually not an issue). The non-miscible oil just gets pushed around the system along with the miscible oil and refrigerant. I have personally kept tabs on hundreds of retrofits with nothing other than a dryer/fitting/labeling change and the addition of the correct oil-no failures due to the retrofit.

If the components work ok within the operating characteristics of the changed system, the desiccant/dryer (if installed) is compatible with the new refrigerant/oil, and the proper oil for the refrigerant is added, I think you are unlikely to see problems with refrigerant conversions.
This is good information...

Wish we had a list of refrigerants and the oil types that are miscible with them.

As I understand it, mineral oil is miscible with R22 and R290 (a happy coincidence) ... beyond that I am not certain.

If you happen to have this info, please share.

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Old 07-18-12, 04:39 PM   #1265
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Napathenic mineral oil can be used with CFC's(like R12) , HCFC's (like R-22), hydrocarbons (like R290) and ammonia-this is what most old school systems came with.

POE (Polyol ester) oil can be used with HFC's (like R134a/R410a) and is the most common R410a lubricant. These are very hygroscopic and hydrolyze to form acids at 75ppm of water. One of the best synthetic (and most expensive) lubes, POE supposedly works fine with hydrocarbons too.

PAG (polyalkylene glycol) can be used with HFC's and hydrocarbons and is the most common mobile R134a lubricant. Also hygroscopic.

There are also PAO (polyalphaolefin), AB (alkylbenzene) and Paraffinic mineral oils as well, but not very common outside of industrial applications.

All of these are available in multiple viscosities so they are miscible with the refrigerant and not too likely to foam or reach oil saturation at the temperatures and oil quantities expected (oil is usually 5-15% of the total charge).

The synthetics work better than mineral oils-I have personally added a few ounces of quality POE oil from BG(a high end automotive chemical company) to several R12 and R22 auto and home A/C systems, with no other changes or servicing to the system. In all cases, operating and evaporator discharge temps, pressures and power consumption (measured as amp draw in home systems or engine load measured by the reduction of injector pulse width required to maintain idle speed in mobile systems) went down, showing the systems were more efficient.

Unless a refrigerant oil expert recommends to the contrary for a specific application, I would drain out as much of the incompatible oil as is convenient, then add around 40-80% (depending on how much was removed) of the full charge amount of POE oil in a higher viscosity unless you are running extremely low evap temps or extremely high pressure ratios.

I have heard many stories of all types of systems running completely incompatible oil/refrigerant combos without failure. If you have at least some of the compatible oil and not too much oil overall, I wouldn't worry.
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Old 07-18-12, 05:03 PM   #1266
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I have looked high and low for my most current time/temp chart and cannot find it! Soon as I run a new test I will certainly update. Recently tweaked the superheat on the txv so there should be a difference (was setup for 12 or 22, not 134), and I have a leak to fix yet. I also have a massive refrigerant pressure and oil type chart that shows compad oils, as well as temperature/pressure scale. 1 more post before I can share these things directly, but if you google "Refr.ptchart2.pdf" the first hit will show you the same chart. The oils on that chart are as follows:
AB - Alkybenzene, POE = Polyol Ester, PAG - Polyalkalene Glycol, MO = Mineral oil. A comma between designations means one or the other. A "+" means a blend is used.

Edit: And a fun fact for those who do not know, A product known as R-12a was brought to market when 12 was taken away. The stuff is 65% R-290 (Propane), 23% 600 (Butane), 12% 600a (IsoButane). Needless to say the stuff was flammable lol. Ill have to have a look at whats in our 12 replacement stuff at work tomorrow.

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Old 07-18-12, 05:38 PM   #1267
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Great find on that chart, RB855, and welcome! The hydrocarbon refrigerants like R290, R600, R600a and any blend that has significant hydrocarbon content show "all" in the compatible oil types column.
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Old 07-18-12, 08:13 PM   #1268
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Default Link to Awsome Chart...

Here's the link to the awesome chart...

The chart is huge... download & save for future reference.


-AC

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Old 07-18-12, 08:42 PM   #1269
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Thought you would like that. It covers pretty much anything thats used as a ref. lol That and it tells you whats in blends which is a neat plus. Its been a great reference sheet when I was deciding what ref to go with. While I have access to 12, 22, 290, and 410a, 134a seemed like a good choice on the pressures, oil compatibility, and if I ever change careers, I can buy a bottle at the parts store. Its not a drop in on 410a systems by any means, but if your Frankensteining the unit, just compensate with the right metering device and expect a ~20% reduction in compressor rating.

While on the topic of oils, there has been very little (if any?) mention of using driers in these diy systems. Is it a detail left out of the story, or a missed item? We get a lot of information and such shoved on our desk on a pretty regular basis by the companies trying to sell repair kits and such that include new accumulators / driers. The claim is to replace the drier whenever the system is opened, or after a failure. I did my own research and found that simply putting a system under a vacuum will not cause the oil to release much any gained moisture, but a suitably sized fresh drier can make quick work of it. I used a standard bi-directional inline filter/drier for hvac on my HP waterheater.

I would also like to include (not very up to date) pictures as promised of my HP Waterheater Linked HERE. Please excuse some of the lower quality photos, I tend to forget to wipe the lens off on my phone causing white washing and focus issues. Ill see if I can get some fresh pictures in the morning added to the album.

With the talk of BPHE, It occurred to me today as I was changing out a radiator, Oil and transmission coolers built into radiators may be useful! So I ripped one out for yall to see.

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Old 07-19-12, 11:09 AM   #1270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RB855 View Post
While on the topic of oils, there has been very little (if any?) mention of using driers in these diy systems. Is it a detail left out of the story, or a missed item?
You are quite right to mention this. It really is part of the story, and especially applicable to DIY systems. As I recall, BradC, from Australia did mention the importance of filter/dryers in another thread. He also did some experiments with restoring filter/dryers by using heat to drive off moisture. His experiments focused on using filter/dryers to upgrade bar-b-que gas for use in heat pump and air conditioning systems.

Vlad, in another thread, criticized the practice of omitting filter dryers in some commercial mini-split systems, as it was in conflict with his training & experience as to the desirability of their inclusion in a serious system design.

It is my personal preference that if a filter/dryer is included, that it is of the 'braze on' type, rather than a flare fitting type.

If you have information that you want to include, please feel free. We're all learning here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RB855 View Post
With the talk of BPHE, It occurred to me today as I was changing out a radiator, Oil and transmission coolers built into radiators may be useful! So I ripped one out for yall to see.
Some of the air-cooled HXs used as oil coolers in automobiles are designed assuming much higher Delta-T than will be found in heat pimps & air conditioners. There is a chance that the water cooled HX that you found may be in a useful range for DIY work... it certainly fits the 'repurposing existing junk' criteria. Let us know what you find out.


BTW, your pix look pretty good, if this is what you get with a dirty lens, I can't wait for the cleaned lens version. Very interesting brazing going on there.

(As an aside, I have been astounded as to the high-quality digital cameras that have been pouring into local Goodwill stores. Just the other day, I picked up a 7 mega-pixel Panasonic, with Leica designed lenses, that is in pristine condition for $12... such a deal!).

Let us know of your experiences, I have a donor gas water heater, waiting patiently in my back yard, for it's second life.

-Best,

-AC_Hacker

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