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Old 08-16-12, 02:30 AM   #131
Vlad
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berniebenz,
Hi pressure side starts from superheated gas and ends up subcooled liquid refrigerant. After this subcooled liquid refrigerant will be pushed into metering device, wich has very small hole in it (compare to liquid line). Just keep counter flow to water and forget about other things. liquid line will be full of liquid if you have enough charge.

Regular flare is good enough but brazing is still much better. Just braze it and forget it. Copper is super friendly material and you can stretch it bend it.... here look how I build distributor just from few pieces of copper tubing

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothe...html#post23498

If you have friend HVAC tech I hope he is refrigeration tech. Refrigeration systems are tricky and unless you want to learn a new trade just ask your friend to help you.... Also you need a ton of tools to do the job right....


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Old 08-20-12, 09:38 AM   #132
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Default Status Report 8/2/12 ~ 2/20/12

Status Report 8/2/12 ~ *8/20/12

Today, it's been about 18 days since we started our measurements.
On the 16th, we turned up the setpoint to 130F. Trying for more dehum.
During the last few days, the ave outdoor temp is down and the basement is @70F.

During the 18 day run, the A7 has run for 26.5 hours ($4.33)
About 25 cents a day is way better than $2 a day for oil heated water!

Yesterday, I started the final pipe insulation work, using the self-sealing foam jacket stuff.

I will finish up the connection segments with adhesive wrap insulation,
or just pipe foam with duct tape to secure it.
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Old 08-20-12, 10:47 AM   #133
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Quote:
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Today, it's been about 18 days since we started our measurements.
Have you considered getting one or two hundred feet or so of PEX and fastening it slinky-style onto your attic rafters? and running your cold water that is now feeding your DHW through this loop before it hits your water heater?

In the simplest form, you could leave it at that and let city water pressure pump the water through.

In a more involved form, you could get a cheap used DHW to use as a pre-heat tank and use a small circulator pump in that circuit, either time or temp controlled (maybe both).

As I calculate it, 100' of half inch PEX = 212.65 cubic inches volume, and a gallon = 231 cubic inches, so probably, the circulator/pre-heat tank approach would be best... yeah about 300 feet of PEX and a circulator tank... that's the ticket. (1/2" x 300ft NSF Red PEX Tubing Pipe Potable Water = $69.98 free shipping)

You did say that the temp in the attic is ALWAYS higher than your incoming city water, right?

-AC
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Old 08-20-12, 01:23 PM   #134
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You did say that the temp in the attic is ALWAYS higher than your incoming city water, right?

-AC
In the summer, that's true. But during the winter, it can get very cold up there at night.
I would have to have a drain-down system to prevent freeze up.

I already have a bit of pre-heat from Solar..



I checked my log and it looks like the pre-heat has been hanging at about 80F on most days.

Edit: 8/25/2012
I'm going to put off hacking my attic's hot air as a source for basement heating.
I'll keep a log this winter and see what kind of temperatures I get up there.
One thing that I recall from previous years, snow on the roof will block the sun pretty well.
So, if we have a snowy winter, like 2010-2011, there won't be much attic solar to be had..

My main reason for considering heating the basement is to provide warm air
for the AirTap (ASHP) hotwater heater, during the colder months.

Heavy snow, and weeks of mostly overcast days during the winter are a worrisome factor.

I've been thinking about the problem for a while, and I'm slowly starting to think
that using the heating element (at 1200 w / 4100 BTUh) in conjunction with
the AirTap ASHP should be able to cut the run-time of the AirTap.
That might allow the basement air temperature to fully recover between runs.

~~~

A Reuben Lucius Goldberg picture just popped into my head..
It was a wall-wart plugged into the AirTap 120vac outlet (hot when running),
connected to a SSR, that controlled a 600 W hot-air ceramic space heater.
The space heater would blow on the back of the AirTap, with 90deg F air..

That would double my electricity cost, but since it's peanuts.. Not a big deal!
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Old 08-26-12, 08:57 AM   #135
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Default 61.6 c ?

We did laundry yesterday and took showers after our evening bike ride,
then I went down to log the numbers last night while the A7 was still running (it was almost done)
and saw 61.6 C displayed (at the input Tee). That's 143F ! That R22 can really get up there!
http://mikespracticewebsite.com/images/R22_PT_CHART.gif
That seems a little high. Should I be worried?

~~~

23 days (or 552 hours) of operation and the A7 has run for almost 38 hours, Using 22.65 kWh.
That's almost 1kWh ($00.1633) per day.

If the temperature in the our basement stayed at 72F all year round,
and we burned 365 kWh per year, that would come to $59.60 per year!!
For oil at $2 a day, it would cost $712 per year (regardless of basement temp).

It's already getting colder.. Here's the outdoor temp chart for the last 28 days.


During cold weather, it's going to take more kWh to get that hot water.
However, our winter hot water requirements normally drop a bit..

Anyways, my wild guess for 1 year is 100 bucks, +/- $20
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Old 08-26-12, 09:43 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xringer View Post
We did laundry yesterday and took showers after our evening bike ride, then I went down to log the numbers last night while the A7 was still running (it was almost done) and saw 61.6 C displayed (at the input Tee). That's 143F ! That R22 can really get up there!
That seems a little high. Should I be worried?
I don't know about worried, but if it were me, I would set the heat pump water heater to a much lower temperature, like maybe 110F to 120F. Reason being that the higher your temperature lift, the lower your efficiency.

-AC
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Old 08-26-12, 10:03 PM   #137
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I don't know about worried, but if it were me, I would set the heat pump water heater to a much lower temperature, like maybe 110F to 120F. Reason being that the higher your temperature lift, the lower your efficiency.

-AC

Just to be clear, that 143F isn't the setpoint we are using.
That's how hot the Tee connection got during a run cycle.
(The Tee is where the HX loop enters the tank).

However, on the 16th, we turned up the setpoint to 130F. It was at 120F.
My wife really likes the 130F setting for hand washing dishes.
I'm thinking of moving it down to 120 or 125 during the cold months.. For efficiency.
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Old 08-26-12, 10:38 PM   #138
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Default Using the A7 to top off the primary winter heat source.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xringer View Post
Just to be clear, that 143F isn't the setpoint we are using.
That's how hot the Tee connection got during a run cycle.
(The Tee is where the HX loop enters the tank).

However, on the 16th, we turned up the setpoint to 130F. It was at 120F.
My wife really likes the 130F setting for hand washing dishes.
I'm thinking of moving it down to 120 or 125 during the cold months.. For efficiency.
Based upon your reports, apparently the A7 is capable of supplying normal residential DHW requirements.
However, in the winter cold season my DHWH, thru a HX, also supplies my in floor radiant system, a substantially greater demand. During this short cold period my thought is to use the propane fired DHWH as a low set point pre heater and the A7 as the secondary top off heater. Relative set points to be determined.
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Old 08-27-12, 09:15 AM   #139
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Based upon your reports, apparently the A7 is capable of supplying normal residential DHW requirements.
However, in the winter cold season my DHWH, thru a HX, also supplies my in floor radiant system, a substantially greater demand. During this short cold period my thought is to use the propane fired DHWH as a low set point pre heater and the A7 as the secondary top off heater. Relative set points to be determined.

I know it's pretty good for supplying hot water for a small family..
(We have a house guest who is also taking showers).

Pre-heating with solar PV is helping save us some kWh, so using a propane
preheater should be great.
However, if the demand from the radiant floor system is high, the A7 may
not be able to keep up. So you might end up heating with mostly propane.

How many BTUh does your radian system need during the day in Dec-Jan?
Will a 7,000 BTUh ASHP be running all day and half the night?
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Old 08-27-12, 10:19 AM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by berniebenz View Post
Based upon your reports, apparently the A7 is capable of supplying normal residential DHW requirements.
However, in the winter cold season my DHWH, thru a HX, also supplies my in floor radiant system, a substantially greater demand. During this short cold period my thought is to use the propane fired DHWH as a low set point pre heater and the A7 as the secondary top off heater. Relative set points to be determined.
The A7 isn't outdoor compatible though is it? If you run something like this in an enclosed space and try to heat a different area you'll freeze the basement or garage or wherever this is going to go. Works great for water because it's not that large of a load.

What you need is something like this.

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