Net metering... (Grid-tying a gas powered generator)

The master plan · 07-06-11, 04:47 AM

Does anyone know if in MN you can run a generator to decrease your power bill? Legal wise...you wouldn't be stepping on someones feet and get into trouble for having a unlicensed generator or something stupid like that?

The idea is to use a gas powered generator and run it on wood smoke instead of gas.

Xringer · 07-06-11, 07:08 AM

If you unplug your table saw (or heat pump) and plug it into your own power source,
that should not be a problem. I think it's still legal in most parts of America.
I run this PC and some lighting off my solar backup system just about every day.

But, if your neighbors start smelling wood smoke at all hours..?..
Like in the summer when their windows are down.?.

The other night, some people that live about 120 yards from us,
were burning wood outside for some reason.
Maybe cooking dogs or roasting marshmallows. Or maybe just to keep the bugs away,
while they were having a few cool ones..

Anyways the air was almost still, when the smoke came into our house and got my eyes burning and me coughing.
It was pretty warm and humid, and I wasn't too happy about closing the windows.

When you wake up at 3AM and your bedroom has a strong odor of burning wood,
that tends to make some folks start wandering around with a flashlight.
Checking to see if there's a house fire going on somewhere..

Ryland · 07-06-11, 07:46 AM

Are you talking about running a wood gasifier to run the generator, then back feeding in to the grid? if you are on Xcel energy then I am pretty sure you can do that, everything needs to be UL listed on the electrical side of course and your system needs to have the anti islanding safety so you don't back feed the grid when the power is down and kill someone, but as long as your system is built in a way that is safe it should be possible to back feed and do net metering, you also of course have to fill out some paper work with the power company and fallow their rules.

The master plan · 07-06-11, 12:13 PM

Ryland: Yes I was talking about the wood gasifier. Never built one, but I was thinking it might be cheaper to go that route rather than solar panels...but you have alot more physical labor. Probably not worth it for me in the long run...but would be a green energy source.

Why is nothing cheap and easy now days?? lol Just brainstorming right now. I also thought maybe a guy could hook up a generator head to a wood splitter and while you are sweating splitting wood at least you would be lowering your power bill alittle. I know when I'm running mine it is almost always just off idle, unless I have a really hard piece. So I think it would have the power to spare to run a generator, if you ran it with more throttle.

Wouldn't a grid tie inverter work in these cases? Maybe I'm just trying to justify a reason to buy one and get the meter to spin backwards. I would love to see a power bill that is actually a credit for the next month.

I've got my total heating bill for the year down to under $200 with wood and heat all by water in the winter with it also. Next is the electricity. But its a challenge, I live in town and wood is messy and lots of labor. Some of the mess could be burned up in a gasifier.

Xringer · 07-06-11, 01:49 PM

$200 a year for heat is great! Not many folks can match that.
You do realize that $200 a year ($16.66 a month) is peanuts!

(I think these are about $8 at the local stores. Love em with beer).

I'll bet people with geothermal systems pay more than $200 a year..

One factor you need to take in to consideration before deciding to make your own AC power, How much are you paying right now, per kWh?

Then, what's it going to cost to built a power producing system, and what will that system generate in kWhs per month? (on average).

Mostly, if you did not invest x-number of bucks into this system,
how many kWh could you buy with that mola??

PS:
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothe...html#post14352
As you can see, I'm paying about $343.56 to heat and cool my home..

Of course, I had a pretty good sized investment up front..

Ryland · 07-06-11, 10:11 PM

A generator could hook right to a grid tie inverter if you could find an inverter that worked with the output voltage of the generator, but most gas engine generators put out 120v some even put out ac and vary the engine throttle to keep the engine speed correct for the sign wave, so it depends on the type of generator you get, but as I said, most of them I've seen tend to be higher voltage then the grid tie inverters that are out there.
Option of course would be to use (I think) an induction motor as your generator as it will not only work as a generator but it will also sync up to the grid and match the sign wave, grid goes down then the field of the induction motor goes down and the whole set up shuts down.
Of course you have to ask your self how much this is going to cost you, I figured that for about $5,000 I could install PV on my house and have -0- electric bill, compare to a $5,000 CD in a bank getting 1.74% interest earning $7.43 per month... that money would get a higher pay back in the form of PV on your house and once it is installed there is no wood to split, stack, haul, cut, light, no chimney to clean, no gasifier to maintain, no oil changes on a generator.

Xringer · 07-06-11, 11:32 PM

The only way I can see for a grid tie, is to generate DC (or use an AC to DC power supply),
since a GTI is looking for DC from PV panels..

07-06-11, 04:47 AM	#1
The master plan Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Central MN Posts: 50 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Net metering... (Grid-tying a gas powered generator) Does anyone know if in MN you can run a generator to decrease your power bill? Legal wise...you wouldn't be stepping on someones feet and get into trouble for having a unlicensed generator or something stupid like that? The idea is to use a gas powered generator and run it on wood smoke instead of gas. Last edited by Piwoslaw; 07-07-11 at 04:17 AM.. Reason: Title update

07-06-11, 07:08 AM	#2
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	If you unplug your table saw (or heat pump) and plug it into your own power source, that should not be a problem. I think it's still legal in most parts of America. I run this PC and some lighting off my solar backup system just about every day. But, if your neighbors start smelling wood smoke at all hours..?.. Like in the summer when their windows are down.?. The other night, some people that live about 120 yards from us, were burning wood outside for some reason. Maybe cooking dogs or roasting marshmallows. Or maybe just to keep the bugs away, while they were having a few cool ones.. Anyways the air was almost still, when the smoke came into our house and got my eyes burning and me coughing. It was pretty warm and humid, and I wasn't too happy about closing the windows. When you wake up at 3AM and your bedroom has a strong odor of burning wood, that tends to make some folks start wandering around with a flashlight. Checking to see if there's a house fire going on somewhere.. Last edited by Xringer; 07-06-11 at 07:32 AM..

07-06-11, 07:46 AM	#3
Ryland Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Western Wisconsin. Posts: 913 Thanks: 127 Thanked 82 Times in 71 Posts	Are you talking about running a wood gasifier to run the generator, then back feeding in to the grid? if you are on Xcel energy then I am pretty sure you can do that, everything needs to be UL listed on the electrical side of course and your system needs to have the anti islanding safety so you don't back feed the grid when the power is down and kill someone, but as long as your system is built in a way that is safe it should be possible to back feed and do net metering, you also of course have to fill out some paper work with the power company and fallow their rules. Last edited by Ryland; 07-06-11 at 07:50 AM..

07-06-11, 01:49 PM	#5
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	$200 a year for heat is great! Not many folks can match that. You do realize that $200 a year ($16.66 a month) is peanuts! (I think these are about $8 at the local stores. Love em with beer). I'll bet people with geothermal systems pay more than $200 a year.. One factor you need to take in to consideration before deciding to make your own AC power, How much are you paying right now, per kWh? Then, what's it going to cost to built a power producing system, and what will that system generate in kWhs per month? (on average). Mostly, if you did not invest x-number of bucks into this system, how many kWh could you buy with that mola?? PS: http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothe...html#post14352 As you can see, I'm paying about $343.56 to heat and cool my home.. Of course, I had a pretty good sized investment up front.. Last edited by Xringer; 07-06-11 at 01:53 PM..

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07-06-11, 12:13 PM	#4
The master plan Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Central MN Posts: 50 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Ryland: Yes I was talking about the wood gasifier. Never built one, but I was thinking it might be cheaper to go that route rather than solar panels...but you have alot more physical labor. Probably not worth it for me in the long run...but would be a green energy source. Why is nothing cheap and easy now days?? lol Just brainstorming right now. I also thought maybe a guy could hook up a generator head to a wood splitter and while you are sweating splitting wood at least you would be lowering your power bill alittle. I know when I'm running mine it is almost always just off idle, unless I have a really hard piece. So I think it would have the power to spare to run a generator, if you ran it with more throttle. Wouldn't a grid tie inverter work in these cases? Maybe I'm just trying to justify a reason to buy one and get the meter to spin backwards. I would love to see a power bill that is actually a credit for the next month. I've got my total heating bill for the year down to under $200 with wood and heat all by water in the winter with it also. Next is the electricity. But its a challenge, I live in town and wood is messy and lots of labor. Some of the mess could be burned up in a gasifier.

07-06-11, 10:11 PM	#6
Ryland Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Western Wisconsin. Posts: 913 Thanks: 127 Thanked 82 Times in 71 Posts	A generator could hook right to a grid tie inverter if you could find an inverter that worked with the output voltage of the generator, but most gas engine generators put out 120v some even put out ac and vary the engine throttle to keep the engine speed correct for the sign wave, so it depends on the type of generator you get, but as I said, most of them I've seen tend to be higher voltage then the grid tie inverters that are out there. Option of course would be to use (I think) an induction motor as your generator as it will not only work as a generator but it will also sync up to the grid and match the sign wave, grid goes down then the field of the induction motor goes down and the whole set up shuts down. Of course you have to ask your self how much this is going to cost you, I figured that for about $5,000 I could install PV on my house and have -0- electric bill, compare to a $5,000 CD in a bank getting 1.74% interest earning $7.43 per month... that money would get a higher pay back in the form of PV on your house and once it is installed there is no wood to split, stack, haul, cut, light, no chimney to clean, no gasifier to maintain, no oil changes on a generator.

07-06-11, 11:32 PM	#7
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	The only way I can see for a grid tie, is to generate DC (or use an AC to DC power supply), since a GTI is looking for DC from PV panels..