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Old 02-13-13, 10:10 PM   #11
jeff5may
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Mikesolar,

Ordinary, gas station cylinder exchange propane works just fine as well as being cheaper than the small bottles of torch or camping gas. The main issue is getting the mercaptan "stench oil" out of the propane. For added insurance, you should have some sort of filter-drier in your liquid line as well.

I am stumped as to the claims being made on the petroleum industry and their so-called lack of quality. Non-spec "commercial grade" propane is not sold to the public. It has been deliberately formulated for the customer it is being sold to. The plastics industry uses ethane/propane blends, while the welding gas industry uses propane/propylene blends. The petrochemical companies make good money separating all these gases from each other and blending them back together. Just look at the refrigeration industry!

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Old 02-13-13, 10:19 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff5may View Post
Blah,blah,blah, it's not real, it's not pure, it's not name brand, where can I buy the real stuff, etc....

Case in point:
Effect of Impurities on Propane Refrigeration System | Campbell Tip of the Month

The main idea is this:

If you're a pro, your supplier can get it. You should know where to look. Is it cheap? Not from Airgas, National, Linde, etc. This stuff is not unknown, it is trying to be denied a future in America. Industry has been using propane, propylene, butane, ehtane, and ammonia as refrigerants for 100 years plus. Their propertes and usefulness are proven. Only since 2010 have they been considered seriously as replacements for traditional, halogen-based refrigerants.

Should you use it? The answer is it depends. Probably not in a customer's heat pump. Not yet, anyway.

Linde has their own line of natural refrigerants. Take a look here:

Gas2010 | Natural Refrigerants

"Linde" brand R290 is Care 40, and guess what? Just about the same price as R22.

IMHO, Worthington or Bernz-o-matic Fat Boy cans are at least 95% r290 (HD-5 grade), pre-blended with up to 5% of propylene (r1270 aka Care 45), butane (r600), and/or ethane (r170) as an added bonus. If there's much more than .001% of non-condensible gas or water in the mix, it messes with the process at the propane plant and it won't liquify in their still. The only thing you have to worry about is the "stink oil", which a standard catch-all will catch on the way in. For $3 a quart, that's what I use with great success.

If I were a scientist doing precise lab experiments for the government, I would source pure R290 and eliminate all doubt. However, my labor would far outweigh the $20 per pint expense of the propane. But Uncle Sam would get his money's worth.
I am a pro, and i can give you numbers to 8 supply houses that will not touch this stuff!

Nothing right now has a higher price than R22 execpt R12! R22 cost is $485 per drum.


I am not shooting to get the rock bottem price here! I want a refrigerant grade gas. As little as 5% mixture of a seperate gas can skew a compressor test this is why BBQ gas will not work for what i want to do! I have a refrigerant reclaimer I can run the BBQ gas through and remove all the moisture trash ect, but i will still have mixed gases!


If HC refrigerants are ever to be approved for high temp use, traceable studys will need to be done to get people on board.

I have orderd a drum of HC22-A from ES and picked up a test kit from united refrigeration. I will send in a sample to be tested and get a brakedown of what is in the gas, i am also going to send in a sample of BBQ gas for compairson. I will post both reports when I get them back!
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Old 02-13-13, 11:05 PM   #13
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Quote:

IMHO, Worthington or Bernz-o-matic Fat Boy cans are at least 95% r290 (HD-5 grade), pre-blended with up to 5% of propylene (r1270 aka Care 45), butane (r600), and/or ethane (r170) as an added bonus. If there's much more than .001% of non-condensible gas or water in the mix, it messes with the process at the propane plant and it won't liquify in their still. The only thing you have to worry about is the "stink oil", which a standard catch-all will catch on the way in. For $3 a quart, that's what I use with great success.
BTW,

HD-5 Propane HD5 grade propane is "consumer grade" propane and is the most widely sold and distributed grade of propane in the U.S. market. HD5 is the highest grade propane available to consumers in the United States and is what propane companies ordinarily sell to their customers. What does HD5 propane mean in terms of specification to an ordinary consumer? It means that the propane is suitable and recommended for engine fuel use, which was the original purpose of the HD5 grade propane specification. HD5 spec propane consists of:

Minimum of 90% propane Maximum of 5% propylene - propylene is used in the manufacture of plastics Other gases constitute the remainder (iso-butane, butane, methane, etc.)
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Old 02-14-13, 05:40 PM   #14
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AtomTrauner,

I apologize if I sound as if I'm trying to run you down. I'm glad we could help you find a reliable source of R290. As time passes, I hope the HVAC/R industry will come to accept natural refrigerants in general. As of now, there are only a handful of consumer products worldwide that use R290, so there is very little demand for service products.

Good luck with your testing! I hope all goes well. I look forward to hearing back from you with results, especially your findings on common LPG.
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Old 02-14-13, 10:13 PM   #15
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AtomTrauner,

I apologize if I sound as if I'm trying to run you down. I'm glad we could help you find a reliable source of R290. As time passes, I hope the HVAC/R industry will come to accept natural refrigerants in general. As of now, there are only a handful of consumer products worldwide that use R290, so there is very little demand for service products.

Good luck with your testing! I hope all goes well. I look forward to hearing back from you with results, especially your findings on common LPG.
I kinda did think you were trying to do something,, unsure what but any who its water under the bridge i guess!

I am putting a bit more into this project as I do own a Mechanical Service, I dont want people to say yea he is the one that will sell you some thing to blow your house up.

I dont plan on selling the system I am looking to use it as a proof of concept!

My plans for this is to charge a 2ton DX system with R22 and run system efficacy test, charge the same system with some of the R22 replacements and run efficacy test and finaly charge with the R290 and run test. I plan to post all results of this on my website so others can see a true side by side compairson in the same system. I will most likely run the DX system indoors so it will be in controled enviroment and no one can make claims of outdoor conditions skewing things.

If what i have read online turns true, the HC should come out on top.

The next stage is going to be making a chiller with the 2Ton system. I have orderd a 2.0Ton coaxal heat exchanger. I will place the controls in a class 1 div 2 box and replace the condenser fan motor with a TEFC exp proof motor.

from the chiller ethylene glycol will be pumped into two 18,000 btu fan coil units, one for my bedroom and the other for my office.

This setup will yeild no HC gas getting pumped into the house.

And like the ceo of hairclub for men, not only am I the ceo I am also a member

I will post autocad drawings of the system as i work it out.

AT
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Old 02-15-13, 07:01 AM   #16
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Why not propylene glycol? Ethylene is way too deadly and is losing market share to propylene and if it is USP grade, a single wall HX is OK in most places. Not so with ethylene, double wall is needed.

I'd be very interested in the results.
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Old 02-15-13, 04:34 PM   #17
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AtomTrainer,

Sounds like an awesome plan! I believe you will find that propane works well in a system designed for R-22. However, it doesn't behave exactly the same as R-22, so a little tweaking is needed to get what you want out of the system. Since you will be using REAL r-290, your test results would be very valuable to this forum. Those of us running BBQ grill gas in comparable systems would have a benchmark, so to speak.
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Old 02-15-13, 09:20 PM   #18
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Why not propylene glycol? Ethylene is way too deadly and is losing market share to propylene and if it is USP grade, a single wall HX is OK in most places. Not so with ethylene, double wall is needed.

I'd be very interested in the results.
You know as much as I try to not have tunnel vision some time it happens! The chemical guys we work with swear by ethylene, but it would be more green to go propylene! Other reason is the EG is free and I must by the PG.

I think PG will be used, If my Tim Allen toy "as the wife has named this project" were to spring a leak and one of the pets ingested the ethylene myself and the cat will most likely get to meet the maker.

@
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Old 02-16-13, 09:18 AM   #19
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You know as much as I try to not have tunnel vision some time it happens! The chemical guys we work with swear by ethylene, but it would be more green to go propylene! Other reason is the EG is free and I must by the PG.

I think PG will be used, If my Tim Allen toy "as the wife has named this project" were to spring a leak and one of the pets ingested the ethylene myself and the cat will most likely get to meet the maker.

@
Yup, lots of dogs and cats have bit the bullet with EG. I pay $3/kg for pure 100% PG when I buy a 200L drum so if you have someone to share it with it would be a good deal.
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Old 02-19-13, 08:39 AM   #20
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I am wondering why this r290 is so favoured before ... r1270?

This "R1270" you can buy from your local milk store (in US/Canada) ... I presume.
It is also called MAP//PRO-gas .

Bullfinch Gas - 399g MAP//Pro gas disposable cylinder

Purity 99,5% (balance propane).See below ...


http://www.jula.se/media/pdf/product...o,%20R!MAC.pdf

Impurities acc. to European standard:
R1270 - Propylene-Propene-C3H6 Intergas International Gases and Chemicals Limited
R290 - Propane-C3H8 Intergas International Gases and Chemicals Limited

There is odour (<50ppm) and some moisture (?) left in the MAP-gas.
If you build up a system of your own ,you surely install a dryer (alumina/zeolite) in your widget swallowing easily the possible impurities below 10ppm(weight).

The challenging task is to find an adaptor linking your gas-bottle into your
... mini-split service valve. Any ideas ... which COLEMAN- adaptor most ok(?) for tapping
the gas/liquid into a hose-adaptor linked with mini-split .
Any help/ideas to be giving from forum rgd. the adaptor -hose-adaptor lay-out?

https://www.google.fi/search?q=colem...w=1252&bih=683

2NEW R410A Manifold Port Flow Control Adapters Hand Valve 1 4x5 16"FFL HVAC Tool | eBay

The AHRI-standard does not recognize the HC-refigerants ... is this really true?

AHRI

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