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Old 02-13-12, 08:31 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BradC View Post
The vacuum pump oil reeks of mercaptan.
This is good to know, mercaptan is a sulphurous agent, correct?

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Old 02-14-12, 04:01 AM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AC_Hacker View Post
This is good to know, mercaptan is a sulphurous agent, correct?

-AC_Hacker
This feature of BBQ is well documented here below:

Ethyl Mercaptan in BBQ Propane

ISOPROPYL MERCAPTAN (PROPANE-2-THIOL)

Some lecture on dryers (note focus on HCFC like R22 !!!):

http://www.heldon.com.au/getattachme...terDriers.aspx

Merkaptanacid not a menice if a dryer in the system.No idea whether dryers significantly decrease performance (W) of the system due pressure drop.
No idea either whether suction line dryer better than liquid line dryer.

Further:

see. .pdf 10/38 (paragraph 4.1)
http://www.hawco.co.uk/UserFiles/MediaLibrary/Zs75s.PDF

RGD. HFC-refrigerants (like R404/410 etc.) ACTIVATED ALUMINA (AlO) seem to be a problem if (=when) it is escaped into the circuit from the dryer.

Also note the "huge" H2O -content (0,2g =200mg !!!) allowed in compressor prior to refrigerant charging!
Compare that figure with my desk calculation!
Horrible!

As far as know the modern circuits use clay-based dryers containing solely zeolite.
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Old 02-14-12, 05:32 AM   #163
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Over here its not just BBQ Propane. Even the real ($50/Kg) HC refrigerants are stenched. The filter/drier circuit certainly helps take it out however.
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Old 02-14-12, 10:54 AM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BradC View Post
Over here its not just BBQ Propane. Even the real ($50/Kg) HC refrigerants are stenched. The filter/drier circuit certainly helps take it out however.

This company sells 'R-22a', which I understand is an HC blend that is meant to be a drop-in replacement for R-22.

I haven't been able yet to verify exactly what the blend is, or what the water vapor allowed is.

They do have a non-sulphurous scent (like pine trees) that is added.

I got some for my next unit.

[EDIT:] I was just checking around on the web and on this page I found this quote:
Quote:
This got me wondering, what is ES 22A? After a bit of googling about I found the MS/DS for ES 22A. Here are the specs from the MS/DS sheet converted to celsius.

ES 22A Specs
-42.5c boiling point
0.5066 Specific gravity
467c Auto ignition temp

Propane/R290 Specs
-42.1c boiling point
0.509 Specific gravity
470c Auto ignition temp

The slight differences can be accounted for by barometric pressure and purity of the gas tested.
[END OF EDIT]

The stuff sure ain't cheap, compared to BQ gas, but at $27/kg, it's better than $50/kg.

Note that they are going at this as a drop-in replacement for R-22, and the contents of a "30 pound" tank actually weighs 12 pounds. To me this seems deceptive, so be forewarned.

If we had a method that was dialed in for removal of water and any other potentially corrosive agents, and that could be implemented by a vapor-compression hobbyist, we would be making a major contribution to our community.

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Old 02-14-12, 11:57 AM   #165
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Curious question since we're discussing it, how much is good new(not recovered like pretty much what every HVAC tech has today) R22 worth? Edit: Nevermind Xringer's link below shows that they retail it for $340.

Another question, is methane gas similar to R22 or R290? Since the stuff is delivered by pipeline and has certain moisture requirements that I would assume must be more stringent than propane, would this perform better? If someone was careful enough they could vacuum a propane tank after fitting it with a pressure gauge and carefully valve in some from the gas line. Danger level would be similar to a homeowner piping up their own gas dryer and people do it all the time.

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Old 02-14-12, 03:46 PM   #166
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Wow! R22A cost about the same as R410A..
R410a 11.2lb cylinder 1/4"SAE outlet - HVAC and Air Conditioning

Kinda makes converting BBQ gas into R290 get another vote..
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Old 02-14-12, 04:28 PM   #167
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I'm still a little confused, an inverter system designed for a high pressure refrigerant like R410a is not going to operate properly when filled with a low pressure refrigerant like R290. You would need to find an R22 system to do this, or some other low pressure system, maybe something R134a to do this. Has this not been discussed in this thread earlier?
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Old 02-14-12, 07:44 PM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AC_Hacker View Post
If we had a method that was dialed in for removal of water and any other potentially corrosive agents, and that could be implemented by a vapor-compression hobbyist, we would be making a major contribution to our community.
I think I'm extraordinarily lucky with my source of Propane. In WA our Propane is just Propane. It's not very wet, it has no significant proportion of Butane or other major contaminants (read as it checks out with accurate P/T measurements). From what I read, this is very much the exception rather than the rule. In most places I think the major challenge is going to be separating the Butane and other HC fractions.

This might be easier in countries that have snow, as if you keep the cylinder below about -15C the Butane should stay liquid and allow you to draw off the propane *slowly* as a vapor. This will still require a small-displacement compressor (like a small fridge compressor) to move the propane into another bottle. If I get my bottle chiller up and going I could experiment with this, as I have a bottle of 60/40 Propane/Iso-Butane I mixed up for use in my car.

The circulation of the liquid through a filter/drier certainly removes a significant proportion of the mercaptan and moisture. Decanting the gas slowly as a vapor also leaves a significant proportion of the mercaptan in the bottle. The colder the bottle and the slower the vapor withdrawal the cleaner the gas appears to get.

Ethyl Mercaptan is an alcohol. Synthetic oils are alcohol based. Moisture causes them to break down into alcohols and acids. For this reason, filter/driers are geared to absorb alcohols also, so they do a pretty good job of removing the general impurities I see in my Propane.

At the moment, I'm struggling to come up with a method for "purifying" the Propane that does not rely on a compressor, condenser and 2 valve bottle.
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Old 02-14-12, 07:53 PM   #169
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I suppose it depends on how much you need but would the propane in the small disposable canisters be more consistent and hopefully more dry? I'm thinking about the propane canisters usually used for light welding/brazing, soldering or camping.
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Old 02-14-12, 08:46 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MN Renovator View Post
I'm still a little confused, an inverter system designed for a high pressure refrigerant like R410a is not going to operate properly when filled with a low pressure refrigerant like R290. You would need to find an R22 system to do this, or some other low pressure system, maybe something R134a to do this. Has this not been discussed in this thread earlier?
It has been discussed before. And, I'm sure more than a few folks are still interested.
The question of replacing R410A with Propane has been asked and so far,
I've only read one case where it was done. (And was very successful per a Youtube poster).
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothe...html#post12152



And there was a study done, where they changed the cap tube in an R410A system..(IIRC).
Experimental Investigation OPTIMUM Charge R290

So, it seems that R410A can be replaced with Propane, and maybe without any mods in some systems..

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