Propane (R-290) for heat pumps? - Page 15

dc€x · 01-28-12, 10:05 AM

Hi BradC

I am new!

Suggestion:

Try freeze-treatment as a DIY-refining method!

Quote:

Water can dissolve into propane (180 ppm @ 68F)
This water can cause two types of problems:
Water solubility decreases rapidly with temperature (65 ppm @ 32F), causing water to drop out of solution with temperature decrease, leaving a water or water–rich layer at tank bottom
Water layer can increase corrosion attack on tank metal
Water can significantly reduce fuel quality on liquid withdrawal systems
Once water layer has formed, diffusion of water into liquid propane is so slow that even if propane warms or is replaced by drier fuel, water will not readily go back into solution, but will remain as lingering source of moisture
Water vapor will be in propane vapor in higher proportions than liquid water in liquid propane (K-ratio for water in propane >> 1)Ice may be formed at vapor pressure drops (for example, in a regulator)

Further:

Moisture in Propane Liquid :
I have a section of an article someone gave me - no idea where from though:

Temperature ppm(weight) vs. Celsius saturated level in liquid propane
-40C 3ppm
-30 5
-15 13
+6C 44
+15 75
+30 173
+45 360

Note that for low temps (below zero) the vapour holds about 20 times more moisture than liquid, this is about 10 times around ambient temperature. I also have some data from GE Sensing which shows higher saturation levels (liquids) -

So,if you have a freezer available,why not let it do do job for you ... only occasionally dilute/tapp off the formed H2O-consentrated gasious phase from the BBQ chamber.

The goal is <10ppm(w) => In 1kg propane 10mg H2O

Xringer · 01-28-12, 10:38 AM

Sounds like you could leave your BBQ tank upside down when it was really cold out.. below -15C ??
And then open the valve to see if there was any water inside..

If there was a lot, it should be in a solid form and nothing would come out of the tank.?.
Or, maybe there's an oil+water mix, and it would be greasy, and ooze out as sludge.?.

dc€x · 01-29-12, 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer

Sounds like you could leave your BBQ tank upside down when it was really cold out.. below -15C ??
And then open the valve to see if there was any water inside..

If there was a lot, it should be in a solid form and nothing would come out of the tank.?.
Or, maybe there's an oil+water mix, and it would be greasy, and ooze out as sludge.?.

Hi Xringer/BradC

Acc. to the Finnish standard the H20 should be max.<200ppm (=200mg H2O per 1kg BBQ-gas)(one drop of H2O = abt. 50mg ...99mg!) .

After deep-freeze-treatment there will be practically 3 phases in the vessel:

The heaviest H2O-rich layer at the bottom maybe frozen or not ... depending on whether the propane is "arctic" type (added methanol) or "sommer" type.

In Australia mehanol-treatment propably not feasible?In North-US/Canada YES!
Depending how your BBQ-tank is positioned in the freezer you may tapp
out this H2O-rich (+methanol) portion or
- the layer is maybe located as frozen against the steel surface locally.Maybe not wise to position the tank in upside-down-mode if interested to get something out from the taphole!You might still get it out by slightly heating the zone by torch!

However not wise to exploit the methanol-doped BBQ-gas at all due probably there will be remains left in the ballast and I feel this is not good for the future activities!

If "sipfon"-type(?) tanks (equipped with a pipe from taphole to bottom area) available ,it gives you more options.

BradC,when creating the refinery,let me be the partner!

Xringer · 01-29-12, 08:36 AM

If there is methanol dissolved into the water, that should make it easy to blow out the water/mix.
Just do it outdoors and away from smokers..

I would also take grounding precautions, to insure no static electricity sparks could make it a bad day..

I wonder if there is a risk of frostbite too..?.

Note: I'm no expert at explosive gas venting.
Doing this without understanding what you are doing, could get you killed.

Any of the propane that is vented will go right to the lowest area of the ground, and accumulate.
May be good to do this kind of thing on a windy day..

And,
"Once water layer has formed, diffusion of water into liquid propane is so slow
that even if propane warms or is replaced by drier fuel, water will not readily go back into solution,"

this factor would also seem to help with flushing out the water..
Left upside down during a really cold night, and allowed to warm up
a bit the next morning, (before venting) should still allow the
removal of a large amount of liquid water.

dc€x · 01-30-12, 02:36 AM

[QUOTE=Xringer;19421
Left upside down during a really cold night, and allowed to warm up
a bit the next morning,[/QUOTE]

I fully stay behind your lecture,Xringer!

A chest freezer mayby the best choice for the refinery before creating an enterprise.
Easy to get down to -20 .. -28degC ,only set aside the frozen food!

I would not rely on the Australian "winter "that much .....

Below physical features and behaviour of propane/water equilibrium :

LINK:
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

PS:
When I get here min. 5 posts,the sources of the data will be issued as well.
Now EcoRenovator prohibits me to give any links in this site!(????)

dc€x · 01-30-12, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer

.... should still allow the
removal of a large amount of liquid water.

If the full propane tank (11kg) contains max. 200ppm(weight) H2O,there could be squeezed away ,say, 2200mg H2O eg. roughly >22 droplets assosiated with some propane liquid. .

So we are dealing with a couple of grams of water.

You will not get out plain water ,it will be a mixture of propane and water and the state/composition depends on the temperature.

Xringer · 01-30-12, 07:35 AM

I'm not sure how the local Propane gas station works.. But I suspect the output
line comes from the bottom of their supply tank, to transfer only liquid propane.
(Or, the supply comes from a siphon tube, reaching near the bottom)

Bottom output seems to be the case with this station.

Therefore, when getting a re-fill on a cold morning, you might be buying
a large amount of water with your propane.. More than usual.

So, if was down around 18F or -7.77C and you had left your 20 pound tank (7.5kg?)
upside down overnight, and then opened the valve and allowed a good whoosh
of gas to blow out for a couple of seconds..

You may have removed a large (but unknown) amount of water (and maybe oil)
from your tank..

Would any oil contaminates be floating in a layer, on top of the water?

Wow! Just found some old posts about oil..
Propane tank oil (John De Armond)

~~~
I've been north of the Arctic Circle a few times and didn't like it.
The nights were way too short!
One night lasted less than an hour, I stayed up and watched it..

Even a short visit to Bergen in the springtime, messed with my bio-clock..

Down here, (1,665 miles south of the AC) it gets cold enough for me!!

dc€x · 01-30-12, 09:11 AM

Do not worry,Xringer, about the possible "extra water".
Probably the tapping valve is not extacly at the bottom ,maybe a little bit higher to prevent sludge/watermixture entering into your tiny tank.

The H2O-segregation from liquid propane is rapid under decreased tempertures ... and finally the drier takes care of the balance in the A/C-system!

Xringer · 01-30-12, 09:54 AM

On a cold morning, maybe I should wait for a few folks to get a fill-up before my tank is filled??

If my application for propane was a Mini-split, I'm not even sure those systems use a drier.?.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1.../referFlow.jpg

dc€x · 01-30-12, 10:06 AM

It is worth reading the issue below:

http://www.propanecouncil.org/upload...rol%20Vol1.pdf

Below water-contents in propane extremely low,why not in BBQ-gas?:

In the test below no indication of the temperature itself:

and further through Google (ppt-file):

Use of Methanol To Control Freezing - Propane.tx.gov - Google-haku

Tis is the basic route for H2O-segregation in the propane corner:

01-28-12, 10:38 AM	#142
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	Sounds like you could leave your BBQ tank upside down when it was really cold out.. below -15C ?? And then open the valve to see if there was any water inside.. If there was a lot, it should be in a solid form and nothing would come out of the tank.?. Or, maybe there's an oil+water mix, and it would be greasy, and ooze out as sludge.?. __________________ My hobby is installing & trying to repair mini-splits EPA 608 Type 1 Technician Certification ~ 5 lbs or less..

01-29-12, 08:36 AM	#144
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	If there is methanol dissolved into the water, that should make it easy to blow out the water/mix. Just do it outdoors and away from smokers.. I would also take grounding precautions, to insure no static electricity sparks could make it a bad day.. I wonder if there is a risk of frostbite too..?. Note: I'm no expert at explosive gas venting. Doing this without understanding what you are doing, could get you killed. Any of the propane that is vented will go right to the lowest area of the ground, and accumulate. May be good to do this kind of thing on a windy day.. And, "Once water layer has formed, diffusion of water into liquid propane is so slow that even if propane warms or is replaced by drier fuel, water will not readily go back into solution," this factor would also seem to help with flushing out the water.. Left upside down during a really cold night, and allowed to warm up a bit the next morning, (before venting) should still allow the removal of a large amount of liquid water. __________________ My hobby is installing & trying to repair mini-splits EPA 608 Type 1 Technician Certification ~ 5 lbs or less..

01-30-12, 07:35 AM	#147
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	I'm not sure how the local Propane gas station works.. But I suspect the output line comes from the bottom of their supply tank, to transfer only liquid propane. (Or, the supply comes from a siphon tube, reaching near the bottom) Bottom output seems to be the case with this station. Therefore, when getting a re-fill on a cold morning, you might be buying a large amount of water with your propane.. More than usual. So, if was down around 18F or -7.77C and you had left your 20 pound tank (7.5kg?) upside down overnight, and then opened the valve and allowed a good whoosh of gas to blow out for a couple of seconds.. You may have removed a large (but unknown) amount of water (and maybe oil) from your tank.. Would any oil contaminates be floating in a layer, on top of the water? Wow! Just found some old posts about oil.. Propane tank oil (John De Armond) ~~~ I've been north of the Arctic Circle a few times and didn't like it. The nights were way too short! One night lasted less than an hour, I stayed up and watched it.. Even a short visit to Bergen in the springtime, messed with my bio-clock.. Down here, (1,665 miles south of the AC) it gets cold enough for me!! __________________ My hobby is installing & trying to repair mini-splits EPA 608 Type 1 Technician Certification ~ 5 lbs or less..

01-30-12, 09:54 AM	#149
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	On a cold morning, maybe I should wait for a few folks to get a fill-up before my tank is filled?? If my application for propane was a Mini-split, I'm not even sure those systems use a drier.?. http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1.../referFlow.jpg __________________ My hobby is installing & trying to repair mini-splits EPA 608 Type 1 Technician Certification ~ 5 lbs or less..

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

01-28-12, 10:05 AM	#141
dc€x Lurking Renovator Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Artic Circle Posts: 27 Thanks: 2 Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts	Hi BradC I am new! Suggestion: Try freeze-treatment as a DIY-refining method! Quote: Water can dissolve into propane (180 ppm @ 68F) This water can cause two types of problems: Water solubility decreases rapidly with temperature (65 ppm @ 32F), causing water to drop out of solution with temperature decrease, leaving a water or water–rich layer at tank bottom Water layer can increase corrosion attack on tank metal Water can significantly reduce fuel quality on liquid withdrawal systems Once water layer has formed, diffusion of water into liquid propane is so slow that even if propane warms or is replaced by drier fuel, water will not readily go back into solution, but will remain as lingering source of moisture Water vapor will be in propane vapor in higher proportions than liquid water in liquid propane (K-ratio for water in propane >> 1)Ice may be formed at vapor pressure drops (for example, in a regulator) Further: Moisture in Propane Liquid : I have a section of an article someone gave me - no idea where from though: Temperature ppm(weight) vs. Celsius saturated level in liquid propane -40C 3ppm -30 5 -15 13 +6C 44 +15 75 +30 173 +45 360 Note that for low temps (below zero) the vapour holds about 20 times more moisture than liquid, this is about 10 times around ambient temperature. I also have some data from GE Sensing which shows higher saturation levels (liquids) - So,if you have a freezer available,why not let it do do job for you ... only occasionally dilute/tapp off the formed H2O-consentrated gasious phase from the BBQ chamber. The goal is <10ppm(w) => In 1kg propane 10mg H2O

01-30-12, 02:36 AM	#145
dc€x Lurking Renovator Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Artic Circle Posts: 27 Thanks: 2 Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts	[QUOTE=Xringer;19421 Left upside down during a really cold night, and allowed to warm up a bit the next morning,[/QUOTE] I fully stay behind your lecture,Xringer! A chest freezer mayby the best choice for the refinery before creating an enterprise. Easy to get down to -20 .. -28degC ,only set aside the frozen food! I would not rely on the Australian "winter "that much ..... Below physical features and behaviour of propane/water equilibrium : LINK: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX PS: When I get here min. 5 posts,the sources of the data will be issued as well. Now EcoRenovator prohibits me to give any links in this site!(????)

01-30-12, 09:11 AM	#148
dc€x Lurking Renovator Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Artic Circle Posts: 27 Thanks: 2 Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts	Do not worry,Xringer, about the possible "extra water". Probably the tapping valve is not extacly at the bottom ,maybe a little bit higher to prevent sludge/watermixture entering into your tiny tank. The H2O-segregation from liquid propane is rapid under decreased tempertures ... and finally the drier takes care of the balance in the A/C-system!

01-30-12, 10:06 AM	#150
dc€x Lurking Renovator Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Artic Circle Posts: 27 Thanks: 2 Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts	It is worth reading the issue below: http://www.propanecouncil.org/upload...rol%20Vol1.pdf Below water-contents in propane extremely low,why not in BBQ-gas?: In the test below no indication of the temperature itself: and further through Google (ppt-file): Use of Methanol To Control Freezing - Propane.tx.gov - Google-haku Tis is the basic route for H2O-segregation in the propane corner: