Is there a thread on crawlspace encapsulation? - Page 4

S-F · 05-08-12, 04:28 PM

Is that really 2" of foam? It's hard to tell from the pictures but it looks like a lot less. Still it should be a pretty good vapor barrier even if it's only less than 1".

gasstingy · 05-09-12, 07:31 AM

I believe it to average around 2" of foam. I'm certain it is less in places and more in others. Still, I'm pleased with it overall.

I had to order the pins to hold the vapor material to the concrete block and they have arrived, so I'm running out of excuses on why I'm not back under the porches securing the vapor barrier. I'll likely be back under there starting tomorrow evening after work.

I have one final plan for improving the crawl space that needs to happen before we build our new solar array. We are probably going to pour a concrete floor from the entry to the crawl space to the storm shelter and add about 2-3" of concrete to build up the threshold. Then we'll have another door made to fit the new slightly smaller opening and that should eliminate water seeping in from under the door.

gasstingy · 05-14-12, 07:26 AM

A little more headway this weekend. I bought a 5/16" masonry bit to drill holes to put the pins in to hold the vapor barrier while the adhesive cures. The first thought was to drill the concrete blocks at 2' intervals. Before I actually started drilling though, I noticed where the pest control folks had drilled the mortar joints in a number of places to inject their chemicals a long time ago. I decided that must me an easier way to keep the holes in a straight line and couldn't be any more difficult than a concrete block to drill.

I'm real glad I did it this way. The mortar joints are easy to drill.

It did not take but an hour and a half to drill all the holes I had planned under the front porch. OTOH, I read the instructions for the polyuerethane adhesive and now I'm going to have to find a vapor mask. I don't want to risk my health using several tubes of that stuff in an area with minimal ventilation. I have a couple of alternative ideas if I can't find a mask online.

One alternative is to put my fan {a commercial grade 36" fan} so it faces as close as I can get it towards the porch and set it on high. Then pull out the foundation vents to allow a decent outlet for the moving air. The problem is, the fan would be placed at the back end of the side porch and would blow down the 3' wide side porch {~ 31'} and then bounce around to go under the front porch which is 52' long and 7 1/2' wide. I don't think even that high powered fan would put that much moving air at the far end of the front porch.

Alternative number two is use the old masks from my C-pap machine. They are designed to be run overpressurized and the excess bleeds out of the mask. I'd need to run two of them through separate 1" vinyl hoses. I figured I could cobble up a manifold of sorts so I could pressurize it with the leaf blower. The down side is that it would take a good 60' of hose per mask because the blower would have to sit outside the foundation in clean air.

I'd love to hear other ideas, including what type mask you may have used before.

S-F · 05-14-12, 10:03 PM

Glad to see you're still plugging away at this MAJOR issues for your health and well being.

Some ideas I have about your work place IAQ: Get a good respirator. It doesn't have to be over the top in price. Any could work. Just get the appropriate cartridges. The only advice that I honestly can give there is that if you can try multiple brands for 4 or so hours you will know which will fit your nose best. If you only use it for a couple hours here and there it shouldn't matter at all though. Me, I hate mine. It begins to squash and hurt my nose after several hours. You will use it many times in the years to come and be glad for it over a dust mask. Next, if your sealant is so hazardous I suggest you depressurize the crawl space to exhaust it. Pressurizing a contaminated area is a no no. Even though you had your floor spray foamed some funk will make it's way up. If you suck it out you will know exactly where it's going. BTW, WTF is the story with this insane sealant?

If you really want to build a pressurized mask I can give you some simple DIY tips I have used in the past, but if your sealant needs that kind of care I suggest you just use spray foam instead. Because it works just as well.

gasstingy · 05-15-12, 07:27 AM

I tried contacting Loctite yesterday and asked about their recommendation for a mask and got no helpful response. I looked up 3M and perused their masks to see what they offered that was helpful. I'm sure of only one thing, and that is I don't fully understand what hazard I'm up against. It may or may not be formidable.

I am now assuming though {I hate to do that} that an organic filter mask is probably what I need. So, I'll pick up a new set of filters for my filter mask and buy another filter mask for my helper to wear. I am also going to run the fan to ventilate the area as much as I can. I have to blow air in, because I can't physically get the fan close enough to use it to exhaust the air. And like I mentioned previously, I plan to remove the foundation vent louvered screens as well.

I'm use to wearing a mask and don't find a well fitting mask to be a real problem, just a minor nuisance. I'm retired USAF and had to wear a gas mask and charcoal suit a number of times, hours at a time in really cold and really hot conditions. This is a walk in the park compared to that!

Ryland · 05-15-12, 09:29 AM

When I had my crawl spaces foamed we had a bid that said 2" of foam and we found a ton of spots that when poked with a 2" chunk of wire turned out to only have 1/4" of foam and a hand full of sill boxes that they missed all together, needless to say they came back and fixed it.

as for vapor masks, most masks have an option for a hepa filter or a vapor filter, I've used the vapor filter for all kinds of nasty stuff, spraying paint was the worst and with those filters you can not smell any of the solvent.

gasstingy · 05-15-12, 09:56 AM

That's the direction I thought I'd go, with the vapor filters. I just stumbled when the filters say "organic vapor." Organic vapor just doesn't sound like what I was expecting to need.

S-F · 05-15-12, 07:26 PM

OV cartridges are what's used for spray foam and chemical fumes. The next step up is a pressurized mask, which is obviously worlds better but probably unnecessary in this situation.

And if you can get a fan to blow air in why can't you simply turn it around to suck air out?

gasstingy · 05-16-12, 07:47 AM

The porch is on three sides of the house. I {think I} have to place the fan at the end of the back porch to blow up the side porch and let it bounce air into the front porch area. Reason being, we have a water faucet that is fed through that side under-porch area. The pipe is about 24" off the ground where it passes through. There's about 42" headroom at that particular spot and the fan is 36" diameter. It won't fit under or over.

I would definitely be happy to hear a reasonable way to fashion something that would make the fan more likely to draw air from the front. It's just my finite imagination says it would draw too much from around the sides of the fan to make a meaningful difference from the front porch. If the fan wasn't so powerful, I wouldn't expect much flow into the front porch area. If you have a plan to make it where I can draw air, please share, I'm not too stubborn to entertain something new to me, and I don't have a case of the "not-invented-here" syndrom.

Understand that I have to be able to put the fan in place while I'm under the side porch and it is under the back porch. Assume the back porch area is about 35" wide and at the corner where the fan would have to sit and there is about 60" headroom. The ground slopes upward from the back of the house to the front. Where the faucet pipe crosses is about 42" headroom and when it gets to the front porch, the headroom is down to 33". Access to the underporch area is through a 36" wide x 54" tall door.

gasstingy · 05-16-12, 08:19 AM

I just got the response to my email to Loctite about the best way to work around this product. The response is from the actual manufacturer. I copied and pasted it below:
__________________________________________________ __________

Pro.Products@us.henkel.com
8:01 AM (9 minutes ago)

to me

Mark,

Using a fan directing the curing vapors outward is the best solution. The cure time will be 24 to 48 hours.

Thank you,

__________________________________________________ _________

It appears they aren't as concerned about it as I am. I'm not sure if that is a good thing or not.

S-F: this does not mean I am disinterested in your fan drawing air technique. I'd like to be able to expand my knowledge base and I'd like to at least be able to give consideration to your method to draw air through. The technique would also work to do a "blower door" test on my house, I'd think.

05-16-12, 07:47 AM	#39
gasstingy Journeyman EcoRenovator Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Arab, AL Posts: 491 Thanks: 109 Thanked 49 Times in 43 Posts	The porch is on three sides of the house. I {think I} have to place the fan at the end of the back porch to blow up the side porch and let it bounce air into the front porch area. Reason being, we have a water faucet that is fed through that side under-porch area. The pipe is about 24" off the ground where it passes through. There's about 42" headroom at that particular spot and the fan is 36" diameter. It won't fit under or over. I would definitely be happy to hear a reasonable way to fashion something that would make the fan more likely to draw air from the front. It's just my finite imagination says it would draw too much from around the sides of the fan to make a meaningful difference from the front porch. If the fan wasn't so powerful, I wouldn't expect much flow into the front porch area. If you have a plan to make it where I can draw air, please share, I'm not too stubborn to entertain something new to me, and I don't have a case of the "not-invented-here" syndrom. Understand that I have to be able to put the fan in place while I'm under the side porch and it is under the back porch. Assume the back porch area is about 35" wide and at the corner where the fan would have to sit and there is about 60" headroom. The ground slopes upward from the back of the house to the front. Where the faucet pipe crosses is about 42" headroom and when it gets to the front porch, the headroom is down to 33". Access to the underporch area is through a 36" wide x 54" tall door. Last edited by gasstingy; 05-16-12 at 07:49 AM.. Reason: Worded poorly in places

05-09-12, 07:31 AM	#32
gasstingy Journeyman EcoRenovator Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Arab, AL Posts: 491 Thanks: 109 Thanked 49 Times in 43 Posts	I believe it to average around 2" of foam. I'm certain it is less in places and more in others. Still, I'm pleased with it overall. I had to order the pins to hold the vapor material to the concrete block and they have arrived, so I'm running out of excuses on why I'm not back under the porches securing the vapor barrier. I'll likely be back under there starting tomorrow evening after work. I have one final plan for improving the crawl space that needs to happen before we build our new solar array. We are probably going to pour a concrete floor from the entry to the crawl space to the storm shelter and add about 2-3" of concrete to build up the threshold. Then we'll have another door made to fit the new slightly smaller opening and that should eliminate water seeping in from under the door.

05-14-12, 07:26 AM	#33
gasstingy Journeyman EcoRenovator Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Arab, AL Posts: 491 Thanks: 109 Thanked 49 Times in 43 Posts	A little more headway this weekend. I bought a 5/16" masonry bit to drill holes to put the pins in to hold the vapor barrier while the adhesive cures. The first thought was to drill the concrete blocks at 2' intervals. Before I actually started drilling though, I noticed where the pest control folks had drilled the mortar joints in a number of places to inject their chemicals a long time ago. I decided that must me an easier way to keep the holes in a straight line and couldn't be any more difficult than a concrete block to drill. I'm real glad I did it this way. The mortar joints are easy to drill. It did not take but an hour and a half to drill all the holes I had planned under the front porch. OTOH, I read the instructions for the polyuerethane adhesive and now I'm going to have to find a vapor mask. I don't want to risk my health using several tubes of that stuff in an area with minimal ventilation. I have a couple of alternative ideas if I can't find a mask online. One alternative is to put my fan {a commercial grade 36" fan} so it faces as close as I can get it towards the porch and set it on high. Then pull out the foundation vents to allow a decent outlet for the moving air. The problem is, the fan would be placed at the back end of the side porch and would blow down the 3' wide side porch {~ 31'} and then bounce around to go under the front porch which is 52' long and 7 1/2' wide. I don't think even that high powered fan would put that much moving air at the far end of the front porch. Alternative number two is use the old masks from my C-pap machine. They are designed to be run overpressurized and the excess bleeds out of the mask. I'd need to run two of them through separate 1" vinyl hoses. I figured I could cobble up a manifold of sorts so I could pressurize it with the leaf blower. The down side is that it would take a good 60' of hose per mask because the blower would have to sit outside the foundation in clean air. I'd love to hear other ideas, including what type mask you may have used before.

05-15-12, 07:27 AM	#35
gasstingy Journeyman EcoRenovator Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Arab, AL Posts: 491 Thanks: 109 Thanked 49 Times in 43 Posts	I tried contacting Loctite yesterday and asked about their recommendation for a mask and got no helpful response. I looked up 3M and perused their masks to see what they offered that was helpful. I'm sure of only one thing, and that is I don't fully understand what hazard I'm up against. It may or may not be formidable. I am now assuming though {I hate to do that} that an organic filter mask is probably what I need. So, I'll pick up a new set of filters for my filter mask and buy another filter mask for my helper to wear. I am also going to run the fan to ventilate the area as much as I can. I have to blow air in, because I can't physically get the fan close enough to use it to exhaust the air. And like I mentioned previously, I plan to remove the foundation vent louvered screens as well. I'm use to wearing a mask and don't find a well fitting mask to be a real problem, just a minor nuisance. I'm retired USAF and had to wear a gas mask and charcoal suit a number of times, hours at a time in really cold and really hot conditions. This is a walk in the park compared to that!

05-15-12, 09:29 AM	#36
Ryland Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Western Wisconsin. Posts: 913 Thanks: 127 Thanked 82 Times in 71 Posts	When I had my crawl spaces foamed we had a bid that said 2" of foam and we found a ton of spots that when poked with a 2" chunk of wire turned out to only have 1/4" of foam and a hand full of sill boxes that they missed all together, needless to say they came back and fixed it. as for vapor masks, most masks have an option for a hepa filter or a vapor filter, I've used the vapor filter for all kinds of nasty stuff, spraying paint was the worst and with those filters you can not smell any of the solvent.

05-15-12, 09:56 AM	#37
gasstingy Journeyman EcoRenovator Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Arab, AL Posts: 491 Thanks: 109 Thanked 49 Times in 43 Posts	That's the direction I thought I'd go, with the vapor filters. I just stumbled when the filters say "organic vapor." Organic vapor just doesn't sound like what I was expecting to need.

05-16-12, 08:19 AM	#40
gasstingy Journeyman EcoRenovator Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Arab, AL Posts: 491 Thanks: 109 Thanked 49 Times in 43 Posts	I just got the response to my email to Loctite about the best way to work around this product. The response is from the actual manufacturer. I copied and pasted it below: __________________________________________________ __________ Pro.Products@us.henkel.com 8:01 AM (9 minutes ago) to me Mark, Using a fan directing the curing vapors outward is the best solution. The cure time will be 24 to 48 hours. Thank you, __________________________________________________ _________ It appears they aren't as concerned about it as I am. I'm not sure if that is a good thing or not. S-F: this does not mean I am disinterested in your fan drawing air technique. I'd like to be able to expand my knowledge base and I'd like to at least be able to give consideration to your method to draw air through. The technique would also work to do a "blower door" test on my house, I'd think.