Need cold climate solution

[ICanHas]

Originally Posted by Theotilus

Thanks to everybody out there for their ideas and advice. I will look into
Bore holes for geo thermal. If I end up using the same Unichiller RC
This winter I will probably want to see if I can make it run more efficiently. One thing the Unichiller does is run for what seems like an unusually long time before
Going into defrost mode which to my way of thinking is hard on the compressor.
Is there a simple way to get the heat pump to go into defrost mode more? Like moving a sensor or something?would this help? Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

What activates the defrost? An active defrost that only defrosts as needed is far better than something that does it passively.

If it's monitoring both the outdoor ambient conditions and the refrigerant pressure, it can see the temperature (dry or dew point) vs refrigerant temperature and the difference will widen with increasing frost obstructing flow and insulating the coil.

Every time you run defrost, you're pumping the heat back out, so it will take a toll on capacity and efficiency since the energy used during defrost and to bring back in the heat pumped out to defrost are penalties.

When it's 40 something and ambient frost point is below 32F and the system can produce enough output while staying just above frost point, there will be no frost building. Being able to AVOID frost formation is good for efficiency. If you force unnecessary defrost cycle, you will waste energy.

[gtojohn]

I can't speak for the unichiller but most heat pumps use a freeze sensor clamped to outdoor coils. Often there is an defrost control board which has an adjustable time setting to check for frost 30, 60 or 90 minutes. You should choose 30 minutes.

[ICanHas]

Bitcoin has passed the point of being a good bet, but there are alternatives including some that are apparently still profitable.

And how does creating demand for these highly production level pollution intensive silicon chip technology and using high harmonic producing switch mode power source to get a COP of 1.0 conducive to "carbon foot print reduction" you tout?

The reason I gave it 1 hour/day use time is because heat strip/computer equipment based heating should be able to provide equal output level and only to use when heat pump can not provide adequate output to do ramp up during off-peak hours. The heat strip/digital bullcrap tool that gets COP 1.0 is to shut down immediately when a rapid heating isn't needed or when heat pump can get over 1.0 COP.

Using a 1.0 COP digital pollution maker when heat pump can achieve 3.0 COP is the same mentality as China factories when belching out pollution is ok when $$ revenue from selling the product exceeds energy cost.

Digital crunch machine that can not utilize all available circuit capacity to rapidly heat up by starting up as late as possible and shutting off right before on-peak rates goes into effect on is inferior performing to heat strip that can. If digital crunch crap can only output at 10,000 BTU/3kW all while only providing 1.0 COP, it is USELESS. I doubt any digital crunch box can provide the same energy density like 27kW 100F rise and operating within air handler. If the airflow has to be higher to hold a lower temperature rise, duct leak loss is increased, fan noise is increased and draftiness/wind chill factor for occupant is increased. Fail fail loss loss solution.


What you want to do is not run it all night to keep the set point higher than needed. You want it to have night set point held by heat pump, then use high power heaters to rapidly bring up the heat during the last hour of off-peak rates.

[NiHaoMike]

With proper selection, a "Bitcoin" (using generic term here) miner can make more in Bitcoins than the electricity used by the machine, netting a profit. It's worth it if the machine could pay for itself in a reasonable time. I certainly can't think of a heat pump that could do that...

If experimental technology isn't your choice, good old fashioned heat lamps (they're just incandescent bulbs designed to run at a lower temperature) can supply a lot of perceived warmth for the power they use.

[ICanHas]

With proper selection, a "Bitcoin" (using generic term here) miner can make more in Bitcoins than the electricity used by the machine, netting a profit. It's worth it if the machine could pay for itself in a reasonable time. I certainly can't think of a heat pump that could do that...

Allie Moore and I have a combined carbon footprint much smaller than that of one average American...

Coin crunch machine would never pay itself off if it is only used when heat pump can not achieve >1.0 COP. Using a 1.0 COP coin cruncher during conditions when heat pump can get 2.0 to 4.0 COP means you're using more kWh to produce same BTUs of heating, which then contributes to more "global warming" yet at the same time you're whining about fluorocarbons having hgher GWP and how they should be replaced with more explosive lower GWP R-290 or some China made 433b crap.

Your own statements contradict eachother. Do you ever notice that?

Yet you think the government should punish people for driving a Suburban or a Hummer. What is your argument if they are wealthier than you and the tax revenue they generate per gallons of gas consumed surpasses you and your Prius? I think you feel things you don't like, such as low mpg SUVs and fluorocarbons should be restrictedbut things you like should be given a pass to waste power and pollute, such as semiconductor fabrication, photovoltaic manufacturing, IT equipment, low lifetime climatic performance computers, etc.


The COP of coin miner is lower than resistance heater when you factor in the low PF and high harmonics that increases power transmission loss through increasing heating in power company transformer.


Profit justifies the use of gross polluters, very much a China factory mentality.

[jeff5may]

Sorry, been putting in the way to get rich at work lately. Long days and then sleep, repeat. Trading time for money sucks.

From your initial post, I gather you have had the 3 ton heat pump boiler for a while. Would you say it serves you well 80 percent of the time? Just not big enough when it gets below 30?

Another thing I noticed is you slush your house around as if it is a constant heat load. Have you done any super insulating or extra sealing to try to quench the escaping 3 ton drain of heat? If you're considering dropping loads of cash at a supplemental source, at least rent a thermal camera for a few days or get a cheap energy audit first. The results may bewilder you.

Geothermal and insulation have lots in common. Relatively high capital investment, lower operating costs. Return on investment depends highly on proper design and impeccabe build quality. Don't just go shopping for either, you'll come home with something not much better than what you have now.

[Mikesolar]

Ummm, no one seems to mention looking at the building envelope FIRST. What improvements are available, how old is it, what are the insulation levels, how many sqft, etc, etc.

Bring that heat load down already.....By the looks of the weather data and power costs and the knowing the cost of boreholes, there will be no return in the well system. There is a return in more attic insulation or foam on the exterior of the foundation.

Mike, what is a "bitcoin miner"? I know what a bit coin is but I don't know anyone who is into "alternative" currency except barter.

[ICanHas]

Originally Posted by Mikesolar

what is a "bitcoin miner"?

New bitcoins are produced by calculation. With each coin produced, the amount of computation needed per coin increases. Since the input for computers is electricity, it's basically money manufactured from electricity.

Every kWh of power going into computers turn into 3413 BTU, or COP of 1.0 just like electric heat strips. What he claims as profit or subsidy is strictly cut throat based on financial output vs financial input with no regard for kWh, emissions or carbon pounds.

Unless you're doing it using non-harmonic generating computers using surplus electricity sourced from hydroelectric or wind during times when production exceeds usage, it's an EXTREMELY socially irresponsible practice that is an affront to conservation efforts.

A heat pump with COP of 3.0 means that the for every 3,000 BTUs, 2,000 BTUs are pumped from outdoors and 1,000 BTUs come from electrical consumption.

If power costs 10c/kWh and bitcoin computers generate a revenue of 7.5c/kWh, it is FINANCIALLY equivalent to 4.0 COP, but THERMODYNAMICALLY, it is still 1.0 COP and you would be using three times more kWh than a 3.0 COP heat pump. So, if the electricity used is generated from burning stuff (natural gas, coal) or depleting the cyclic life of batteries, you're wasting natural resources and increasing emissions. Generally, computers produce extreme amounts of harmonics that is detrimental to energy provider's infrastructure.

At 10c/kWh...
heat pump with 3.0 COP: "carbon foot print" = 1/3. cost of heat = 3.33c/kWh

Coin miner that yields 7.5 cents of product for every 10c of electricity used:
heat output: 1.0kWh per 1.0kWh. Fiscal cost of heat: 2.5c/kWh
Energy usage however 3 times as much.

It's based on self centered core value that profit justifies all means including using up resources, polluting the environment and creating harmonics that reduce power quality which in spirit is equivalent to corporations refusing to take pollution prevention measures, because it reduces their profitability.

I know what a bit coin is but I don't know anyone who is into "alternative" currency except barter.

The idea is it offers cash like anonymity but can be transferred electronically without leaving a trail. So you know.... it's a desirable thing for someone looking to launder money. Criminals, terrorists, drug smugglers, etc.

[NiHaoMike]

What about the case where electricity is largely generated from alternative energy? (And modern PSUs do have PFC if that bothers you.) Then you could end up with a setup where you net a profit heating your house and in turn support alternative energy.

The argument of Bitcoin being usable for illegal purposes isn't really a valid reason to not use it. P2P can be (and largely is) used to illegally pirate movies and music, but it does have legitimate uses such as distributing Linux ISOs.

[Xringer]

If you are only experiencing temperatures when your system fails to produce
enough BTUh, very rarely..
Say 20 hours per winter? You might want to consider buying a back-up system.

I have been using a few 1200W (4094 BTUh) electric space heaters during
< 10F nights, when out Sanyo ASHPs start to choke..
When really gets cold for a long period of time, we can burn oil too.

There are some good mini-splits being made these days..
Some of them are good down to 5 deg F..

Check out the specs on this one..
9,000 BTU, 208/230 Volt Terra Ductless Mini Split - ComfortUp

Pinballooking is the guy to ask about them..
EcoRenovator - View Profile: pinballlooking

They might be more eco than using your current system for light duty cooling and heating.

I've been running two 24k Sanyo mini-splits for the last 12 hours,
and they used a total of 7 kWh..