Garage / workshop project - Page 16

gasstingy · 02-10-12, 07:47 AM

It's been a long time since I've updated this thread, but let me do a bit now.

As time permitted, I worked on insulation {downstairs only}, wiring {again, downstairs} and plumbing the downstairs restroom. Each has its own challenges and I am slowly working through them.

I'm sort of stumped now as I begin to hang sheetrock. I'm going to be using 5/8" on the ceiling and plan to use 1/2" on the walls. On my way to work this morning, I stopped at the building supply and asked for 25 pounds of 2" sheetrock screws. I was suprised when they told me they only had 1 1/4" sheetrock screws. I didn't buy them, because it is not what I was expecting.

I know from experience that some people will sell you what they have in stock as if it is correct just to get the sale.

So, I am asking if anyone knows how long they really need to be?

mrd · 02-10-12, 10:31 AM

I believe IRC code minimum is 5/8" penetration of wood studs. So 1-1/4" would be the bare minimum for 5/8" rock. And that's with screws 12" on center, max. But, is this for a garage ceiling below living space?

By code a garage must be separated from living/sleeping/eating/cooking areas with 5/8" type-x gypsum. This improves the fire resistance. You're also required to have fire-rated or solid wood doors, and you can't have a door directly into a sleeping room. This is fire safety stuff, and I want to make sure you are aware of it.

So, 1-1/4" should be fine for these applications. I thought there was another minimum length screw for drywall, but after perusing the code a bit, I only see another specification when gypsum is used as structural sheathing (for shear walls) in which case you'd need longer screws.

gasstingy · 02-10-12, 11:02 AM

mrd, Thank you for your reply. I am going to call it living space, just because it is a large room that my wife will be able to use for doing crafts. The upstairs room will be 16' x ~32' when finished. We are going to have a utility sink, some kitchen style cabinets and a lot of open space. The only door into the upstairs room will be an exterior entry door of some type, TBD. I also plan to install smoke/fire detectors up and down and have them tied together so that if one goes off, they both do.

I am comfortable with using 1 5/8" screws, but the prospect of the shorter ones they tried to sell me this morning didn't feel right. I expect to space the screws closer than 12" apart, too.

gasstingy · 02-13-12, 07:25 AM

Thought I'd update with pictures and a description of what we're doing. My nephew Trent is an electrician and volunteered to help. If you have a really good memory, you might remember that he helped Will attach all the trusses in the middle. Will and I hung the trusses on each end. I wasn't up to the task hanging trusses and other heavy work that day.

Anyway, Trent helped first lay the floor tile in our restroom. He'd had help putting tile down in his house and shared his learniing with me.

We did not grout the tile at that time. I'm not planning to grout until the room is completely sheetrocked and painted so I don't get the grout nasty ahead of time.

Trent came by a bit later and I rented a trencher. We trenched from my house to the garage and from the septic tank to the garage. Then we laid the piping to run the wiring in and wired the downstairs of the barn. He also installed and connected up the outside light over the front door and a couple of outlets so I could quit dragging and extension cord to power lights and tools.

gasstingy · 02-13-12, 08:01 AM

More pictures.

I got a couple of quotes for insulating the downstairs with closed cell foam. I wanted 5", but only one guy would even quote that much closed cell and he wanted ~ $3700. Both quoted $1650 to do 2" in closed cell and called it R14. One offered to do 5" open cell for $1850 and called that R18. I wanted more insulation than R14, but wasn't willing to spend $3700 to do it. What I did was buy 17 sheets of XPS at Home Depot. After a 10% military discount (retired USAF), it came to barely over $500. I researched online and decided to cut the foam boards with a skil saw. This works great, clean cuts, easy....
The downsides, wear a mask, the dust goes everywhere

and it's gummy. I don't think the saw will ever be the same again. Again, if you use a circular saw to cut this, wear a mask. I don't know if your lungs would recover without one. I did a friction fit putting the pieces in the wall cavities and then put a few nails around the edges in case friction wasn't good enough. Then, I had 2" closed cell sprayed on top of the XPS. Since it is more than a total of 4" almost everywhere, I believe I am more than R24 in the walls.

More soon, I hope.

MN Renovator · 02-13-12, 02:15 PM

Owens Corning Foamular is XPS insulation. Higher R-value per inch than EPS. I have 2" thick (R10) chunks of it myself, some in the garage waiting for warmer weather to sheath my currently uninsulated skylight and used it to cap my vertical knee cavities that were previously open to the wall below.

I like it, smells terrible though, especially when it is either being cut or has been cut anytime in the recent months. I never thought about using it how you are using it but its cool to see its much cheaper to use rigid than spray foam. Before this I thought all foam was terribly expensive, this makes rigid board seem reasonably priced in a relative sense.

gasstingy · 02-13-12, 02:33 PM

I saw on others threads where people were doing their own spray foam with {I think Tiger Foam} DIY kits. I was not interested in trying to do all that. I commend those who did though.

The XPS in combination with 2" of foam seemed a good idea to me. Their spray job sealed up any minor cavities I had from ill-fitting foamular, and my effort saved a lot on the overall cost. Plus, I had them foam all four corners of the building without me doing the XPS boards. All those corner cavities were where nails came in from two directions. I couldn't see a reasonable way of adding XPS there. They did not charge me any extra at all for going 4" - 5" thick in the corners.

MN Renovator · 02-13-12, 02:46 PM

I forgot to say that the job looks very well done. If I ever feel like doing a deeper retrofit to my house, I'll likely go this route since I have 2x4 construction, I'd probably use 2" and spray the rest of the 1.5". Maybe stack a 2" and a 1" and then have the last half inch foamed by a pro. I never thought much about this though until I came across this thread because I figured if I were to go any deeper into retrofit that I'd rather build new with energy in mind, this thread has me rethinking that a bit.

Daox · 02-13-12, 02:57 PM

This is very similar to what AC Hacker did with his kitchen. He used 2" foam in the cavity (cut with a decent space on the sides) and then used great stuff around the gap to seal it up nice and tight. IMO either way is great because you get that perfect air sealing.

gasstingy · 02-22-12, 07:31 AM

Another update with pictures. I am showing off what my wife bought me for Christmas in these pictures. From Amazon(dot)com I am the proud owner of a Troy DPH11 Drywall lift. The directions to put it together were lame, but it went together ok. It has a couple of places where the different pieces are a slip fit and that makes it a little wobbly. Not unsafe wobbly, just not absolutely steady.

I am hanging 5/8" thick Type X sheetrock on the ceiling. The lift is designed to hold the long sheets, but I am not designed to pick up a 12' sheet by myself. I have a great enough struggle picking up a 4 x 8 sheet and putting it on the lift. It got a bit better when I had help stacking the sheetrock off the floor. The lift platform does not lock, so when you load it you have to try not to drag the sheets on the platform too much, it turns when you do.

During the lift process, you are simply winding a winch. Rotate winch with right hand while holding the brake release with the left hand. It's a simple process that should be respected when you are using it. I got distracted and let go of the lift handle when it was most of the way up, once! I did not let go of the brake release at first, so it dropped like a rock with the handle really moving. When it hit my hand, I released the brake and the lift stopped immediately. Then I took a break to bandage my hand. No point in bleeding all over the sheetrock.

After positioning the piece, I snug it as tight as possible to the ceiling and start on one end going across. {I found a neat little bit for my cordless drill that is made just for hanging drywall. It has a ring around the bit that makes the bit slip out of the screw when it gets to the correct depth. A pair of bits were only $2.98 at Lowes.} For all the middle rows, I put a screw in each end and then use a straight edge to keep me screwing into lumber. I don't have a really good eye for these things. I also found out my job of bracing the rafters was off by a little here and there, so I am having to trim the sheetrock just a little to get it to fit right.

It's getting there, a piece or two at a time.

02-10-12, 10:31 AM	#152
mrd Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Milford, DE Posts: 106 Thanks: 5 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	I believe IRC code minimum is 5/8" penetration of wood studs. So 1-1/4" would be the bare minimum for 5/8" rock. And that's with screws 12" on center, max. But, is this for a garage ceiling below living space? By code a garage must be separated from living/sleeping/eating/cooking areas with 5/8" type-x gypsum. This improves the fire resistance. You're also required to have fire-rated or solid wood doors, and you can't have a door directly into a sleeping room. This is fire safety stuff, and I want to make sure you are aware of it. So, 1-1/4" should be fine for these applications. I thought there was another minimum length screw for drywall, but after perusing the code a bit, I only see another specification when gypsum is used as structural sheathing (for shear walls) in which case you'd need longer screws. Last edited by mrd; 02-10-12 at 11:00 AM..

02-13-12, 07:25 AM	#154
gasstingy Journeyman EcoRenovator Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Arab, AL Posts: 491 Thanks: 109 Thanked 49 Times in 43 Posts	Thought I'd update with pictures and a description of what we're doing. My nephew Trent is an electrician and volunteered to help. If you have a really good memory, you might remember that he helped Will attach all the trusses in the middle. Will and I hung the trusses on each end. I wasn't up to the task hanging trusses and other heavy work that day. Anyway, Trent helped first lay the floor tile in our restroom. He'd had help putting tile down in his house and shared his learniing with me. We did not grout the tile at that time. I'm not planning to grout until the room is completely sheetrocked and painted so I don't get the grout nasty ahead of time. Trent came by a bit later and I rented a trencher. We trenched from my house to the garage and from the septic tank to the garage. Then we laid the piping to run the wiring in and wired the downstairs of the barn. He also installed and connected up the outside light over the front door and a couple of outlets so I could quit dragging and extension cord to power lights and tools. Attached Thumbnails

02-13-12, 08:01 AM	#155
gasstingy Journeyman EcoRenovator Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Arab, AL Posts: 491 Thanks: 109 Thanked 49 Times in 43 Posts	More pictures. I got a couple of quotes for insulating the downstairs with closed cell foam. I wanted 5", but only one guy would even quote that much closed cell and he wanted ~ $3700. Both quoted $1650 to do 2" in closed cell and called it R14. One offered to do 5" open cell for $1850 and called that R18. I wanted more insulation than R14, but wasn't willing to spend $3700 to do it. What I did was buy 17 sheets of XPS at Home Depot. After a 10% military discount (retired USAF), it came to barely over $500. I researched online and decided to cut the foam boards with a skil saw. This works great, clean cuts, easy.... The downsides, wear a mask, the dust goes everywhere and it's gummy. I don't think the saw will ever be the same again. Again, if you use a circular saw to cut this, wear a mask. I don't know if your lungs would recover without one. I did a friction fit putting the pieces in the wall cavities and then put a few nails around the edges in case friction wasn't good enough. Then, I had 2" closed cell sprayed on top of the XPS. Since it is more than a total of 4" almost everywhere, I believe I am more than R24 in the walls. More soon, I hope. Attached Thumbnails Last edited by gasstingy; 02-13-12 at 02:22 PM.. Reason: Corrected EPS to XPS

02-13-12, 02:57 PM	#159
Daox Administrator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Germantown, WI Posts: 5,525 Thanks: 1,162 Thanked 374 Times in 305 Posts	This is very similar to what AC Hacker did with his kitchen. He used 2" foam in the cavity (cut with a decent space on the sides) and then used great stuff around the gap to seal it up nice and tight. IMO either way is great because you get that perfect air sealing. __________________ Current project - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. & To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

02-22-12, 07:31 AM	#160
gasstingy Journeyman EcoRenovator Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Arab, AL Posts: 491 Thanks: 109 Thanked 49 Times in 43 Posts	Another update with pictures. I am showing off what my wife bought me for Christmas in these pictures. From Amazon(dot)com I am the proud owner of a Troy DPH11 Drywall lift. The directions to put it together were lame, but it went together ok. It has a couple of places where the different pieces are a slip fit and that makes it a little wobbly. Not unsafe wobbly, just not absolutely steady. I am hanging 5/8" thick Type X sheetrock on the ceiling. The lift is designed to hold the long sheets, but I am not designed to pick up a 12' sheet by myself. I have a great enough struggle picking up a 4 x 8 sheet and putting it on the lift. It got a bit better when I had help stacking the sheetrock off the floor. The lift platform does not lock, so when you load it you have to try not to drag the sheets on the platform too much, it turns when you do. During the lift process, you are simply winding a winch. Rotate winch with right hand while holding the brake release with the left hand. It's a simple process that should be respected when you are using it. I got distracted and let go of the lift handle when it was most of the way up, once! I did not let go of the brake release at first, so it dropped like a rock with the handle really moving. When it hit my hand, I released the brake and the lift stopped immediately. Then I took a break to bandage my hand. No point in bleeding all over the sheetrock. After positioning the piece, I snug it as tight as possible to the ceiling and start on one end going across. {I found a neat little bit for my cordless drill that is made just for hanging drywall. It has a ring around the bit that makes the bit slip out of the screw when it gets to the correct depth. A pair of bits were only $2.98 at Lowes.} For all the middle rows, I put a screw in each end and then use a straight edge to keep me screwing into lumber. I don't have a really good eye for these things. I also found out my job of bracing the rafters was off by a little here and there, so I am having to trim the sheetrock just a little to get it to fit right. It's getting there, a piece or two at a time. Attached Thumbnails

02-10-12, 07:47 AM	#151
gasstingy Journeyman EcoRenovator Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Arab, AL Posts: 491 Thanks: 109 Thanked 49 Times in 43 Posts	It's been a long time since I've updated this thread, but let me do a bit now. As time permitted, I worked on insulation {downstairs only}, wiring {again, downstairs} and plumbing the downstairs restroom. Each has its own challenges and I am slowly working through them. I'm sort of stumped now as I begin to hang sheetrock. I'm going to be using 5/8" on the ceiling and plan to use 1/2" on the walls. On my way to work this morning, I stopped at the building supply and asked for 25 pounds of 2" sheetrock screws. I was suprised when they told me they only had 1 1/4" sheetrock screws. I didn't buy them, because it is not what I was expecting. I know from experience that some people will sell you what they have in stock as if it is correct just to get the sale. So, I am asking if anyone knows how long they really need to be?

02-10-12, 11:02 AM	#153
gasstingy Journeyman EcoRenovator Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Arab, AL Posts: 491 Thanks: 109 Thanked 49 Times in 43 Posts	mrd, Thank you for your reply. I am going to call it living space, just because it is a large room that my wife will be able to use for doing crafts. The upstairs room will be 16' x ~32' when finished. We are going to have a utility sink, some kitchen style cabinets and a lot of open space. The only door into the upstairs room will be an exterior entry door of some type, TBD. I also plan to install smoke/fire detectors up and down and have them tied together so that if one goes off, they both do. I am comfortable with using 1 5/8" screws, but the prospect of the shorter ones they tried to sell me this morning didn't feel right. I expect to space the screws closer than 12" apart, too.

02-13-12, 02:15 PM	#156
MN Renovator Less usage=Cheaper bills Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 939 Thanks: 41 Thanked 116 Times in 90 Posts	Owens Corning Foamular is XPS insulation. Higher R-value per inch than EPS. I have 2" thick (R10) chunks of it myself, some in the garage waiting for warmer weather to sheath my currently uninsulated skylight and used it to cap my vertical knee cavities that were previously open to the wall below. I like it, smells terrible though, especially when it is either being cut or has been cut anytime in the recent months. I never thought about using it how you are using it but its cool to see its much cheaper to use rigid than spray foam. Before this I thought all foam was terribly expensive, this makes rigid board seem reasonably priced in a relative sense.

02-13-12, 02:33 PM	#157
gasstingy Journeyman EcoRenovator Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Arab, AL Posts: 491 Thanks: 109 Thanked 49 Times in 43 Posts	I saw on others threads where people were doing their own spray foam with {I think Tiger Foam} DIY kits. I was not interested in trying to do all that. I commend those who did though. The XPS in combination with 2" of foam seemed a good idea to me. Their spray job sealed up any minor cavities I had from ill-fitting foamular, and my effort saved a lot on the overall cost. Plus, I had them foam all four corners of the building without me doing the XPS boards. All those corner cavities were where nails came in from two directions. I couldn't see a reasonable way of adding XPS there. They did not charge me any extra at all for going 4" - 5" thick in the corners.

02-13-12, 02:46 PM	#158
MN Renovator Less usage=Cheaper bills Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 939 Thanks: 41 Thanked 116 Times in 90 Posts	I forgot to say that the job looks very well done. If I ever feel like doing a deeper retrofit to my house, I'll likely go this route since I have 2x4 construction, I'd probably use 2" and spray the rest of the 1.5". Maybe stack a 2" and a 1" and then have the last half inch foamed by a pro. I never thought much about this though until I came across this thread because I figured if I were to go any deeper into retrofit that I'd rather build new with energy in mind, this thread has me rethinking that a bit.