Affordable battery storage (used electric car batteries) - Page 2

oil pan 4 · 02-23-16, 11:51 AM

Its not economically feasible to recycle lithium batteries last time I checked.
If you are looking at paying $100/kwh for lead, you are looking in the wrong places at the wrong batteries.

Your car uses around 1/4 gallon of fuel per hour idling, the most you could expect to get from a car alternator continuously with out burning it up is around 1kwh per hour. Using 31,250BTUs of "oil" just to produce 1kwh, that alone is a travesty.
As far as I am concerned that right there eliminates it form being even a poor power production method.
I don't know or care what the fruity California special emissions cars produce as far as emissions but it should be pretty easy to look up.
Whatever they produce as far as emissions, I am use its a deplorable amount of pollution for only making 1kwh compared to anything else short of burning tires.

jjackstone · 02-23-16, 05:02 PM

Hey OilPan. I'm not looking for a huge argument. All I was wondering is where you get your sources so I can verify if I am making correct assumptions or I am making mistakes in my theoretical design.

Typically I used 10-15kwh of energy per day. Using a 40 to 50kwh battery back up is 4 or 5 days autonomy for me. The only time I would charge them other than using panels would be if there were no usable sunlight here for a sustained period. The last time that happened was several years ago. Have that drought thing going on you know.
Oh, by the way, I don't own a car right now. Gave them up for bicycles a couple years ago.

So first I would have to purchase a car and knowing what it would be used for I would most likely install a higher voltage hi output alternator. It's been done many times by many people. A gallon of gas contains about 33.5 kwhs of energy. Figure maybe a 25% efficiency(if lucky) from burning the gas to usable electricity, would give me at least half the energy(7 to 8 kwhr) I need for a full day.

Don't know what to tell you about batteries. All the sites that I check that sell deep cycle solar batteries show about a minimum of $100 per kwh price. The quality ones are more.

JJ

oil pan 4 · 02-23-16, 11:02 PM

Try looking for slightly used forklift traction batteries.
They are cheap because most people don't know they exist, even then most people cant handle the 1/2 to 8 ton battery assemblies so they don't buy them.

jeff5may · 02-24-16, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjackstone

Hey OilPan. I'm not looking for a huge argument. All I was wondering is where you get your sources so I can verify if I am making correct assumptions or I am making mistakes in my theoretical design.

Typically I used 10-15kwh of energy per day. Using a 40 to 50kwh battery back up is 4 or 5 days autonomy for me. The only time I would charge them other than using panels would be if there were no usable sunlight here for a sustained period. The last time that happened was several years ago. Have that drought thing going on you know.
Oh, by the way, I don't own a car right now. Gave them up for bicycles a couple years ago.

So first I would have to purchase a car and knowing what it would be used for I would most likely install a higher voltage hi output alternator. It's been done many times by many people. A gallon of gas contains about 33.5 kwhs of energy. Figure maybe a 25% efficiency(if lucky) from burning the gas to usable electricity, would give me at least half the energy(7 to 8 kwhr) I need for a full day.

Don't know what to tell you about batteries. All the sites that I check that sell deep cycle solar batteries show about a minimum of $100 per kwh price. The quality ones are more.

JJ

If you really really really got to have something gas powered, get a portable generator. They are all more effective than an automobile as far as capacity and efficiency go. Plus, you could tow one behind a bicycle if you wanted.

MEMPHIS91 · 02-24-16, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

Try looking for slightly used forklift traction batteries.
They are cheap because most people don't know they exist, even then most people cant handle the 1/2 to 8 ton battery assemblies so they don't buy them.

Good luck. I looked for years now! Unless you live in a huge city they are insanely expensive and only about $1,000 cheaper than the new stuff. Companies can sell their used batteries back to the battery company for more than it would be worth trying to pay for one for solar.

oil pan 4 · 02-25-16, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MEMPHIS91

Good luck. I looked for years now! Unless you live in a huge city they are insanely expensive and only about $1,000 cheaper than the new stuff. Companies can sell their used batteries back to the battery company for more than it would be worth trying to pay for one for solar.

Yes I agree, off grid solar makes no sense if you have grid power.

I know all about what it takes to power stuff off grid with solar. About $1000 got me enough solar and battery capacity to power a refrigerator while the sun is out.
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/solar-...or-hybrid.html

pinballlooking · 02-25-16, 11:58 AM

I have wanted to see fuel cell tech work well and become affordable and dependable.
I would love someday to repurpose a couple old EV battery packs my current solar array and fuel cell as backup power.

jjackstone · 02-25-16, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Try looking for slightly used forklift traction batteries.
They are cheap because most people don't know they exist, even then most people cant handle the 1/2 to 8 ton battery assemblies so they don't buy them."

I actually worked on electric forklifts for a very short period of time a number of years ago. Those packs do pack a punch. You're right about the batteries being heavy. We had to unload them with another forklift or a chain hoist.

Quote:

If you really really really got to have something gas powered, get a portable generator. They are all more effective than an automobile as far as capacity and efficiency go. Plus, you could tow one behind a bicycle if you wanted.

That's funny. I could use it to recharge the batteries on the electric bike I built and have a tribrid. Human, electric, gas powered vehicle.

JJ

jeff5may · 02-25-16, 11:14 PM

A tri-brid?? Now that's interesting. You could put some PV panels on it and make a quad-brid! Ha! I love it!

Robaroni · 03-01-16, 04:43 PM

JJ,
After doing this for over ten years now this is what I advise:

Going off grid options are best for individuals who just don't have grid access.

For those who have grid access and want to have the off grid option I would install an off grid/intertie system. Why run your house on batteries when you can sell power to the utility and use your batteries when you really need them? This way you save your batteries. Battery life is a product of two things, one cycles and two depth of discharge. The more cycles and the greater discharge to shorter life of your batteries.

I have two systems and intertie an an off grid/intertie. The intertie just feeds the grid, the off grid/ intertie feeds my house and send excess to the grid. In the event of grid failure, which happens here a few times a year, my batteries take over. I don't use them everyday so they will last longer, they are already in over ten years.

If you're really intent on maximizing your gain then charge your batteries and run your house at night during low rate times and run during the day on your batteries and PV, send the excess to the grid during high rate times.

Running off grid when you don't have to is too costly, again, I only recommend it when yo don't have a grid option.

LA batteries are still the cheapest overall, they don't really take that much extra work and in warmer climates you can keep them outside in a small hut or battery box. It's cheaper in the long run to put the money into modules. I'm buying new modules whole sale for under $1.00 a watt and it's a better option than used modules, dollar for dollar.

Buy good stuff! Don't cut corners to buy more PV, you can always add on over time. I've had modules go bad, it's not impossible. In fact I had a 25 year Bosch module go bad. Bosch is no longer making modules but the honored my warranty and sent me a brand new module. Try that with used modules.

Also, you're just getting into this and you have to live with it for awhile to learn the ins and out. Start smaller if your funds are low, adding on is not a problem and you may rethink your needs after a couple of years. If anything buy a larger capacity inverter to anticipate a larger system in the future.

Rob

02-25-16, 11:58 AM	#17
pinballlooking Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: SC Posts: 2,923 Thanks: 172 Thanked 564 Times in 463 Posts	I have wanted to see fuel cell tech work well and become affordable and dependable. I would love someday to repurpose a couple old EV battery packs my current solar array and fuel cell as backup power. __________________ Current project Aquaponics system , Passive Solar Greenhouse build To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Solar Install 12.5 Kwh- To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Mini Split installs - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. EV Chevy Volt - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

03-01-16, 04:43 PM	#20
Robaroni Journeyman EcoRenovator Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Delhi, NY Posts: 332 Thanks: 20 Thanked 53 Times in 40 Posts	JJ, After doing this for over ten years now this is what I advise: Going off grid options are best for individuals who just don't have grid access. For those who have grid access and want to have the off grid option I would install an off grid/intertie system. Why run your house on batteries when you can sell power to the utility and use your batteries when you really need them? This way you save your batteries. Battery life is a product of two things, one cycles and two depth of discharge. The more cycles and the greater discharge to shorter life of your batteries. I have two systems and intertie an an off grid/intertie. The intertie just feeds the grid, the off grid/ intertie feeds my house and send excess to the grid. In the event of grid failure, which happens here a few times a year, my batteries take over. I don't use them everyday so they will last longer, they are already in over ten years. If you're really intent on maximizing your gain then charge your batteries and run your house at night during low rate times and run during the day on your batteries and PV, send the excess to the grid during high rate times. Running off grid when you don't have to is too costly, again, I only recommend it when yo don't have a grid option. LA batteries are still the cheapest overall, they don't really take that much extra work and in warmer climates you can keep them outside in a small hut or battery box. It's cheaper in the long run to put the money into modules. I'm buying new modules whole sale for under $1.00 a watt and it's a better option than used modules, dollar for dollar. Buy good stuff! Don't cut corners to buy more PV, you can always add on over time. I've had modules go bad, it's not impossible. In fact I had a 25 year Bosch module go bad. Bosch is no longer making modules but the honored my warranty and sent me a brand new module. Try that with used modules. Also, you're just getting into this and you have to live with it for awhile to learn the ins and out. Start smaller if your funds are low, adding on is not a problem and you may rethink your needs after a couple of years. If anything buy a larger capacity inverter to anticipate a larger system in the future. Rob Last edited by Robaroni; 03-02-16 at 07:25 AM..

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

02-23-16, 11:51 AM	#11
oil pan 4 Land owner Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: NM Posts: 1,026 Thanks: 12 Thanked 127 Times in 107 Posts	Its not economically feasible to recycle lithium batteries last time I checked. If you are looking at paying $100/kwh for lead, you are looking in the wrong places at the wrong batteries. Your car uses around 1/4 gallon of fuel per hour idling, the most you could expect to get from a car alternator continuously with out burning it up is around 1kwh per hour. Using 31,250BTUs of "oil" just to produce 1kwh, that alone is a travesty. As far as I am concerned that right there eliminates it form being even a poor power production method. I don't know or care what the fruity California special emissions cars produce as far as emissions but it should be pretty easy to look up. Whatever they produce as far as emissions, I am use its a deplorable amount of pollution for only making 1kwh compared to anything else short of burning tires.

02-23-16, 05:02 PM	#12
jjackstone Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sacramento,Ca Posts: 88 Thanks: 5 Thanked 32 Times in 23 Posts	Hey OilPan. I'm not looking for a huge argument. All I was wondering is where you get your sources so I can verify if I am making correct assumptions or I am making mistakes in my theoretical design. Typically I used 10-15kwh of energy per day. Using a 40 to 50kwh battery back up is 4 or 5 days autonomy for me. The only time I would charge them other than using panels would be if there were no usable sunlight here for a sustained period. The last time that happened was several years ago. Have that drought thing going on you know. Oh, by the way, I don't own a car right now. Gave them up for bicycles a couple years ago. So first I would have to purchase a car and knowing what it would be used for I would most likely install a higher voltage hi output alternator. It's been done many times by many people. A gallon of gas contains about 33.5 kwhs of energy. Figure maybe a 25% efficiency(if lucky) from burning the gas to usable electricity, would give me at least half the energy(7 to 8 kwhr) I need for a full day. Don't know what to tell you about batteries. All the sites that I check that sell deep cycle solar batteries show about a minimum of $100 per kwh price. The quality ones are more. JJ

02-23-16, 11:02 PM	#13
oil pan 4 Land owner Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: NM Posts: 1,026 Thanks: 12 Thanked 127 Times in 107 Posts	Try looking for slightly used forklift traction batteries. They are cheap because most people don't know they exist, even then most people cant handle the 1/2 to 8 ton battery assemblies so they don't buy them.

02-25-16, 11:14 PM	#19
jeff5may Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: elizabethtown, ky, USA Posts: 2,428 Thanks: 431 Thanked 619 Times in 517 Posts	A tri-brid?? Now that's interesting. You could put some PV panels on it and make a quad-brid! Ha! I love it!