Questions about DIY Install of Mini-Splits - Page 2

Xringer · 01-26-14, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nokiasixteth

Any one used the ideal air. The lines come with a pre 30psi of vac if i remember right. Wonder if you could be able to get lines with the pre vac for a unit that isnt outrageous in price.

I saw this at the Ideal Air site.

Flexible stainless steel pre-charged 23' line set with quick connect fittings allows for easy Do It Yourself installation.
No technician required.
Now with optional day/night mode.
High energy efficiency performance: 13 SEER air conditioner.
Line sets are pre-vacuumed and pre-charged with R104A refrigerant.

The Quick-connect seems pretty nice, but I think we discussed this brand before.
The design of the line-set attachment system has been changed.. (I think).

It looks like some of these Ideal Air models don't have a good SEER either.
Even the better ones aren't that great.. Not sure why, if they are using inverter tech..

That Flexible stainless steel line-set sounds interesting, never hear of one before.
My last job was used (Den Sanyo) used short copper tube bonded onto aluminum tubes..
Seems weird, but they are still holding pressure..

MN Renovator · 01-26-14, 05:36 PM

That video in post 8 along with Xringer's comment about not installing a pad brought up a question. Xringer made a wooden structure which might work for the duration he figures he will use it and if it needs maintenance it is pretty easy to do that work.

..but the video shows the corner stands that I usually see used with full size non-inverter heat pumps to keep them off the ground and away from snow. The question this brings up is, can someone just use those round cardboard concrete tubes such as what are used to support a deck and have them the appropriate level above grade to support the unit above the snow level and put the rubber vibration isolators on top of those? It seems that the mini-split is usually supported at the four corners and a few bags of concrete and 4 round concrete forms would be plenty to do the job versus installing a full slab. It seems much easier and doesn't have the longevity issues that come with wood and probably won't have a corner sinking like the 28 year old pad my AC sits on. Is this a bad idea?

pinballlooking · 01-26-14, 06:18 PM

We hardly ever get snow so I used two of these to mount the second unit. I would use these again. I made a cement pad for the first one but one would not do that again. I put these in the dirt about 3 ½ deep and bolted the AC unit to them it is not going to fall over.
16 in. x 8 in. x 4 in. Concrete Block $1.48 each
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded...7#.UqDFH86A2Uk
pictured here Mini Split install
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothe...install-8.html

But for a snowy area your idea would work good.

Xringer · 01-26-14, 07:51 PM

I've told you guys about the double decker Sanyo at the Lexington Dunkin Donuts.

I think it's been leaning for a few years now. Still cranking out the BTUs.
It's sitting on top of two patio pavers. Look like 12x6x2 inch. (or 12x6x1)?
I guess they are both about an inch under the soil by now.

Compared to that installation, my Sanyo Skid of steel and PT 4x4s is built like a battleship.

It's got enough Footprint, it's not gonna sink in much, this decade..

I did have to shove some bricks under one end to get it level..
I've had the two longer 4x4s around here, for around 40 years and they are still okay..
My fixed solar array mount (ex-mini-deck) is made from the same batch..
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...arrayhoist.jpg
Still pretty dang good lumber. PT stuff lasts a long time..

You could use those SonoTubes, those will outlast the planet.
http://www.atlasform.com/pages/concr.../sonotube.html

I would try to use just two, instead of trying to put two, right next to each other.
Get fat ones, or mount a bracket on top of them, for attaching the shock mounts.

woody · 01-26-14, 08:37 PM

Thanks for all of the replies!

Yes I do EVERYTHING myself......I've read lots of posts here and have done research although I didnt get all my questions answered.

pinball..... will check out that video....thanks.

so.... a few questions.....

1. it seems that there are now tons of off-brand units..... all have major brand compressors and 5yr + 2 yr. warranties. I think the ticket is to find a wholesaler who knows his product and seems to be helpful and honest. what are your opinions?

2. I was looking at the seer value although heat is much more important to me than coolness. So I have been looking at units that are at least 20 seer and use a dc converter. Am I in the ballpark using a seer rating even if heat is more important to me? we rarely get colder than 20f. Mostly 35ish.

3.since my square footage is 550, am I correct in looking for a btu rating of 12,000. Again, I plan on upgrading my tightness of my home as well. sounds like I don't want a system that is to big for my 550 sq. ft.

Thanks for the help everyone..... Woody

woody · 01-26-14, 08:42 PM

Happy Birthday Xringer!!
Just turned 25, right???

pinballlooking · 01-26-14, 10:22 PM

You might want to check out the Gree 12,000 BTU 25 SEER Terra. 25 SEER HSPF 9.0 COP 3.5
heating to -4
Terra Series - Ductless Wall Mount Heating and Cooling | Gree Comfort

https://www.acwholesalers.com/Gree-A...&trail=18442:1 Ton:1004:Gree

I have a Gree 9,000 BTU Terra series we are very happy with it so far. I have only been running it since Oct so I don’t have a long term review

Xringer · 01-26-14, 10:28 PM

Does 25 feel like 75??

If it doesn't cost a lot more, I would consider getting a brand name.
A larger company is going to have a larger support team.

Is the wholesaler important? If they do provide a good level of support, maybe.
If their HVAC guys are like most HVAC guys (that I've met), they don't know
a great deal about mini-splits.
I had pretty good support, but I ended up hitting my on-line seller support with questions he couldn't answer.
When I got to the 'experts' at Sanyo (now sold by Panasonic),
I got guesses, and no real help for the hardest problem.
At least it was easy to convince them to send me a replacement unit. (Outdoor unit).

If you get a 20 SEER (or higher) unit, it's likely going to be effective at both heating and cooling.
It was important to get a good low temperature operation, in my case.

Anyways, the low end range is a trade-off. You consider your back-up
and look at the past weather data for your area.
I think it's been getting 'Cool Dip' colder around here for the last few years.
What I mean by Dip, is when the temperature is prone to being
too cold to get any ASHP heat for 3 or 6 hours.. (Below 10F).
This winter takes the cake. During the last two months, I think we've burned
more oil than we've burned in the last 5 years.
I don't recall ever seeing such extended periods of extreme cold.
(Extreme for the Boston area anyways).
Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about the average mean temp.
It's these long deep temperature drops that require backup heat.
We have been getting some spring like days too..
But it's the dips that are a PITB..

The new hi-tech MS units, which is likely about 15 years old tech, is called Inverter Technology.
It uses DC motors with speed controls. The controller can turn the output
(RPM & BTUh) up and down in small increments.
It uses the data from the thermostat (mostly remotes that look like TV remotes),
to control the room temp very precisely, using only the amount of power it needs..

So, you need not fear having a 24,000 BTU system heating 14x17 sqft room.
(That's my Den unit! & it's actually rated at 36,000 BTUh in heat mode)
It will only run at high power when it's really needed.
Most of the time, it will just loaf along, pumping in 4,000 to 8,000 BTUhs
and use only the amount of power required..

There is really no such thing as getting a unit that's a bit over-sized.
It's not going to bake you. It's going to throttle back and keep you comfy.

What you need to worry about is getting one that too small..
If it's just a tad too small, the only fix is to start insulating like a mad man..

If you get an old-tech MiniSplit, it's going to switch off and on..
Like a window AC. On is full RPMs of the compressor and Off is No RPMs.
It will be cheaper, but it will use more power and make more noise.

Inverter Technology is quite quiet..

Standard chart seems to be based on a well insulated area..

woody · 01-27-14, 05:48 PM

xringer...
Thanks for the advice.
It seems according to your chart, my 550sq. ft. fits into the 12,000 btu column.
I guess I should spring for the 18,000 btu system so I'm not cutting things off so close. That means an extra 400.00.
Any reason to go 110 or 220? I see you bought a 110 system. Except it looks like the 110 systems have a lower seer rating. I have to run the wire whichever I use so that's not an issue. Just curious what you think.

pinballlooking....
thanks for the info about the Gree system. Can you tell me why you picked Gree? Also, I looked around at many sites and ACwholesalers have the best prices....

Anyone....
Can someone point me to info on how these systems work?

Like for example.... does the heat pump actually heat up the R104A refrigerant and then move it to the conditioner in side? If so then I would think the length of tubing will make a difference of efficiency. shorter the run the better?
Thanks again, Woody

pinballlooking · 01-27-14, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woody

xringer...
pinballlooking....
thanks for the info about the Gree system. Can you tell me why you picked Gree? Also, I looked around at many sites and ACwholesalers have the best prices....

I bought both my mini splits form ACwholesalers they did a good job. I was able to find coupon codes to help on the cost.
Mitsubishi and Fujitsu have the best reviews.
Check out post 115 I review both LG and Gree units.
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothe...nstall-12.html
A local installer told me he had good luck with Gree Terra series. The specs are really good and the price is good also. Fujitsu is a safer but this was for my master bedroom so I went for the Gree.

It has performed very well I am very happy with so far.

This unit is a little more money but it sure is nice this is what I was going to get for my living room until I decided I need a duel head unit. I really did need the duel head I am glad I went that way.

https://www.acwholesalers.com/Fujits...32:22.00-28.00

01-26-14, 07:51 PM	#14
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	I've told you guys about the double decker Sanyo at the Lexington Dunkin Donuts. I think it's been leaning for a few years now. Still cranking out the BTUs. It's sitting on top of two patio pavers. Look like 12x6x2 inch. (or 12x6x1)? I guess they are both about an inch under the soil by now. Compared to that installation, my Sanyo Skid of steel and PT 4x4s is built like a battleship. It's got enough Footprint, it's not gonna sink in much, this decade.. I did have to shove some bricks under one end to get it level.. I've had the two longer 4x4s around here, for around 40 years and they are still okay.. My fixed solar array mount (ex-mini-deck) is made from the same batch.. http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...arrayhoist.jpg Still pretty dang good lumber. PT stuff lasts a long time.. You could use those SonoTubes, those will outlast the planet. http://www.atlasform.com/pages/concr.../sonotube.html I would try to use just two, instead of trying to put two, right next to each other. Get fat ones, or mount a bracket on top of them, for attaching the shock mounts. __________________ My hobby is installing & trying to repair mini-splits EPA 608 Type 1 Technician Certification ~ 5 lbs or less.. Last edited by Xringer; 01-26-14 at 08:01 PM..

01-26-14, 08:42 PM	#16
woody Lurking Renovator Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Cave Junction, OR Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	oh yea.... Happy Birthday Xringer!! Just turned 25, right???

01-26-14, 10:28 PM	#18
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	Does 25 feel like 75?? If it doesn't cost a lot more, I would consider getting a brand name. A larger company is going to have a larger support team. Is the wholesaler important? If they do provide a good level of support, maybe. If their HVAC guys are like most HVAC guys (that I've met), they don't know a great deal about mini-splits. I had pretty good support, but I ended up hitting my on-line seller support with questions he couldn't answer. When I got to the 'experts' at Sanyo (now sold by Panasonic), I got guesses, and no real help for the hardest problem. At least it was easy to convince them to send me a replacement unit. (Outdoor unit). If you get a 20 SEER (or higher) unit, it's likely going to be effective at both heating and cooling. It was important to get a good low temperature operation, in my case. Anyways, the low end range is a trade-off. You consider your back-up and look at the past weather data for your area. I think it's been getting 'Cool Dip' colder around here for the last few years. What I mean by Dip, is when the temperature is prone to being too cold to get any ASHP heat for 3 or 6 hours.. (Below 10F). This winter takes the cake. During the last two months, I think we've burned more oil than we've burned in the last 5 years. I don't recall ever seeing such extended periods of extreme cold. (Extreme for the Boston area anyways). Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about the average mean temp. It's these long deep temperature drops that require backup heat. We have been getting some spring like days too.. But it's the dips that are a PITB.. The new hi-tech MS units, which is likely about 15 years old tech, is called Inverter Technology. It uses DC motors with speed controls. The controller can turn the output (RPM & BTUh) up and down in small increments. It uses the data from the thermostat (mostly remotes that look like TV remotes), to control the room temp very precisely, using only the amount of power it needs.. So, you need not fear having a 24,000 BTU system heating 14x17 sqft room. (That's my Den unit! & it's actually rated at 36,000 BTUh in heat mode) It will only run at high power when it's really needed. Most of the time, it will just loaf along, pumping in 4,000 to 8,000 BTUhs and use only the amount of power required.. There is really no such thing as getting a unit that's a bit over-sized. It's not going to bake you. It's going to throttle back and keep you comfy. What you need to worry about is getting one that too small.. If it's just a tad too small, the only fix is to start insulating like a mad man.. If you get an old-tech MiniSplit, it's going to switch off and on.. Like a window AC. On is full RPMs of the compressor and Off is No RPMs. It will be cheaper, but it will use more power and make more noise. Inverter Technology is quite quiet.. Standard chart seems to be based on a well insulated area.. __________________ My hobby is installing & trying to repair mini-splits EPA 608 Type 1 Technician Certification ~ 5 lbs or less.. Last edited by Xringer; 01-26-14 at 10:33 PM..

01-27-14, 05:48 PM	#19
woody Lurking Renovator Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Cave Junction, OR Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Great advice.... xringer... Thanks for the advice. It seems according to your chart, my 550sq. ft. fits into the 12,000 btu column. I guess I should spring for the 18,000 btu system so I'm not cutting things off so close. That means an extra 400.00. Any reason to go 110 or 220? I see you bought a 110 system. Except it looks like the 110 systems have a lower seer rating. I have to run the wire whichever I use so that's not an issue. Just curious what you think. pinballlooking.... thanks for the info about the Gree system. Can you tell me why you picked Gree? Also, I looked around at many sites and ACwholesalers have the best prices.... Anyone.... Can someone point me to info on how these systems work? Like for example.... does the heat pump actually heat up the R104A refrigerant and then move it to the conditioner in side? If so then I would think the length of tubing will make a difference of efficiency. shorter the run the better? Thanks again, Woody

01-26-14, 05:36 PM	#12
MN Renovator Less usage=Cheaper bills Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 939 Thanks: 41 Thanked 116 Times in 90 Posts	That video in post 8 along with Xringer's comment about not installing a pad brought up a question. Xringer made a wooden structure which might work for the duration he figures he will use it and if it needs maintenance it is pretty easy to do that work. ..but the video shows the corner stands that I usually see used with full size non-inverter heat pumps to keep them off the ground and away from snow. The question this brings up is, can someone just use those round cardboard concrete tubes such as what are used to support a deck and have them the appropriate level above grade to support the unit above the snow level and put the rubber vibration isolators on top of those? It seems that the mini-split is usually supported at the four corners and a few bags of concrete and 4 round concrete forms would be plenty to do the job versus installing a full slab. It seems much easier and doesn't have the longevity issues that come with wood and probably won't have a corner sinking like the 28 year old pad my AC sits on. Is this a bad idea?

01-26-14, 06:18 PM	#13
pinballlooking Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: SC Posts: 2,923 Thanks: 172 Thanked 564 Times in 463 Posts	We hardly ever get snow so I used two of these to mount the second unit. I would use these again. I made a cement pad for the first one but one would not do that again. I put these in the dirt about 3 ½ deep and bolted the AC unit to them it is not going to fall over. 16 in. x 8 in. x 4 in. Concrete Block $1.48 each http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded...7#.UqDFH86A2Uk pictured here Mini Split install http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothe...install-8.html But for a snowy area your idea would work good.

01-26-14, 08:37 PM	#15
woody Lurking Renovator Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Cave Junction, OR Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for all of the replies! Yes I do EVERYTHING myself......I've read lots of posts here and have done research although I didnt get all my questions answered. pinball..... will check out that video....thanks. so.... a few questions..... 1. it seems that there are now tons of off-brand units..... all have major brand compressors and 5yr + 2 yr. warranties. I think the ticket is to find a wholesaler who knows his product and seems to be helpful and honest. what are your opinions? 2. I was looking at the seer value although heat is much more important to me than coolness. So I have been looking at units that are at least 20 seer and use a dc converter. Am I in the ballpark using a seer rating even if heat is more important to me? we rarely get colder than 20f. Mostly 35ish. 3.since my square footage is 550, am I correct in looking for a btu rating of 12,000. Again, I plan on upgrading my tightness of my home as well. sounds like I don't want a system that is to big for my 550 sq. ft. Thanks for the help everyone..... Woody

01-26-14, 10:22 PM	#17
pinballlooking Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: SC Posts: 2,923 Thanks: 172 Thanked 564 Times in 463 Posts	You might want to check out the Gree 12,000 BTU 25 SEER Terra. 25 SEER HSPF 9.0 COP 3.5 heating to -4 Terra Series - Ductless Wall Mount Heating and Cooling \| Gree Comfort https://www.acwholesalers.com/Gree-A...&trail=18442:1 Ton:1004:Gree I have a Gree 9,000 BTU Terra series we are very happy with it so far. I have only been running it since Oct so I don’t have a long term review