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Old 03-17-14, 03:44 PM   #161
buffalobillpatrick
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Has anyone used: FLEXABLE BRAIDED STAINLESS STEEL HYDRAULIC HOSE to connect to compressor to reduce vibration to rest of system?

I don't know if interior is compatable with refrigerants ?

BBP


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Old 03-17-14, 04:23 PM   #162
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No need. Just a little coiled up copper tubing is enough.
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Old 03-17-14, 04:26 PM   #163
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Thought so. Thx.

If coils are vertical will liquid propane collect in them?

BBP

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Old 03-17-14, 06:57 PM   #164
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NEVER run the pot while in deep vacuum. You may do so with perhaps 50-60% refrigerant in it but the windings can arc and destroy it under full vac.
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Old 03-17-14, 08:40 PM   #165
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WOW, I wouldn't want to do that!
It's hard to know what advice is N/G
I copied that from this forum.

BBP
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Old 03-17-14, 09:10 PM   #166
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BBP,

The goal is to minimize superheat and subcooling as low as we can, as it is not latent mode heat transfer to and from the refrigerant. A small amount of each is necessary (superheat to avoid flooding the compressor, subcooling to keep liquid line from burping) but excessive amounts of either rob from thermal efficiency. I have seen and heard of water source systems running less than 5 degF of each with no problems.
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Old 03-18-14, 12:05 AM   #167
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PROPANE

http://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewc...20superheat%22

See figure 6 highest Eff. with superheat (SH1) 21-35K



http://ww.mycoolingtower.com.au/down...2004-05-01.pdf

Fig 5 right side scroll with R290 goes off the top of chart at about 22K


The purpose of IHX or SLHX is to move heat from the condenser to TXV section into the evaporator to compressor suction line, this increases Eff. by increasing superheat.


references that I copied from this site:

"A word on R290 and superheat. If your TXV came set up for R22, the factory superheat setting is WAAAY too low! R22 likes 6-7K superheat in practice, whereas manufacturers are recommending 14-20K or more superheat for R290 systems. It seems that the propane dissolves in oil, making a kind of oil soda in the condensor side. This actually aids in heat transfer, since liquid propane soda has much better thermal conductivity than just oil. The problems happen on the other side of the TXV when this oil soda rapidly expands. Instead of fogging like R22 and oil, the propane soda fizzes and foams like warm beer! If your superheat setting is too low, the stuff spews right through the evap coil, transferring nearly no heat and killing your temperature split. If you listen to the evaporator, you can hear it! Sounds kind of like a car radiator that is about to spew from overheating."

another reference:
"4 Superheat MUST be in 20F zone because propane is tend to condense and compressor is getting liquid in suction line. This can dramatically shorten life of compressor.

5 I found that many recommend liquid line-suction line HX because it helps maintaining superheat and increases COP (substantially compare to R22)"

another reference:
Then I read this:

"...the high solubility of mineral oils in propane could represent a problem, especially for applications such as heat pumps displaying high suction pressures... the experimental results reported in the present work can therefore be explained by means of the strong influence that the propane solubility could have on the sealing effect of the lubricant between piston and cylinder... the solubility is shown to strongly decrease by increasing the superheating; as a consequence, the viscosity of the oil strongly increases with superheating until reaching a maximum at around 30-40K superheating... the suction superheat would have a positive influence on the volumetric efficiency."

and from the other article:

"Refrigeration capacity and COP differs only slightly from R22
data. However, the suction superheat with R290 has essentially
a greater influence (see Fig. 4). In other words: R290
profits in capacity and efficiency from useful superheat, the
use of a heat exchanger between the suction and liquid lines
is therefore an advantage.
R290 has mainly favourable thermodynamic properties and
low energy requirements during compression. Pressure levels
and volumetric refrigeration capacity values are very similar
to R22, however, there is a large difference in enthalpy,
density, mass flow and isentropic compression exponent
(operating temperatures)...

R290 has an extraordinary high solubility with conventional
lubricants and Ester oils. This characteristic is of course
desirable for the oil circulation in the system. However, it
can lead to a considerable decrease of the oil viscosity in
the compressor especially at low oil temperature and high
suction pressure. In addition to this, there is a strong degassing
effect in the crankcase and lubricating spaces
which is, amongst other things, due to the enormous volume
change with the evaporation of R290. This leads to
high oil carry over (foaming), reduced performance and
stronger wear on the moving parts (also see para. 3.2)...

Expansion valves should be specifically designed for R290.

The use of R22 valves is of course possible but at higher
evaporating temperatures it can lead to insufficient superheat
(different pressure / temperature relationship). A corrected
superheat setting would then be necessary.

Attention!
The minimum discharge gas temperature should be at
least 20 K (try to attain 30 K) over the condensing temperature.
(see information in para. 2.1)"

BBP

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Old 03-18-14, 05:42 PM   #168
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jeff5may, I expected a rebuttal?
If what I have researched is wrong, please let me know why.

My new Copeland compressor came, Is it filled with lead?

I have found some Packless VIBRATION ABSORBERs to connect to compressor. Good idea?

So this is list of components in order:

compressor -> vibration absorber -> 1/2" ACR -> high pressure cutout -> thermal switch cutout -> service port for line to gauge -> condenser 1/2" port (top) ->

condenser large port (bottom) -> 1/2" ACR -> SLHX -> 1/2" ACR ->
service valve -> service port for line to gauge ->
filter/dryer (outlet down) -> sight glass ->

2T R22 external bulb TXV -> 5/8" ACR -> service port for line to gauge ->

evaporator small port (bottom) -> evaporator large port (top) ->
3/4" ACR -> SLHX -> 3/4" ACR ->

large accumulator -> service valve -> service port for line to gauge ->
low pressure cutout -> sight glass -> vibration absorber -> compressor

So I have 4 pressure gauges on REFRIGERTION CHARGING HOSE 1/4"

& 2X service valves for vacuuming & charging.

I will have a gauge to monitor compressor current & 6 temperature sensors monitored by same Arduino that controls system.

Please critique?

BBP

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Old 03-18-14, 06:56 PM   #169
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Unless the compressor is labeled RoHS compliant (given it's a R410a compressor, it probably is), it probably does contain lead. Don't worry about it as it's nowhere as bad as the "environmentalists" say it is.

Put the service port in the liquid line. Depending on design, some can be quite restrictive and any restriction in the discharge line will degrade efficiency. (A restriction in the liquid line has much less effect.) Also, the heat of the discharge line can age the seals and cause leaks. The high pressure cutout can also be installed in the liquid line.

On a system of the size you're dealing with (physically, not tonnage), a shutoff valve in the liquid line won't be particularly useful.

A slight glass in the suction line might be useful for checking for slugging, but put it between the accumulator and SLHX. Two gauges are all you need, actually one (after the initial setup) since you can get a very accurate suction pressure reading with a thermal sensor attached to the outlet of the TXV.
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Old 03-18-14, 09:32 PM   #170
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I found a Copeland secret decoder ring:
ZP24K5EPFV830
Z=scroll, P=R410a, 24=24Kbtu, K5=version, E=?, PFV=1phase,208/230V

I was saying that it's heavy for it's size!

ROBINAIR 18560 VALVE CORE REMOVER any good?

Is 50W enough for compressor heater? or a couple of them on a thermal snap
switch so as not to overheat, Of course turn off heater when compressor is on. I was thinking of wraping with reflectex but I'm unsure of how much the compressor relies of convection to cool itself?

Amazon.com: Como AC 220V 50W Taper Ceramic Emitter Heater Pet Reptile Heat Lamp White: Pet Supplies


So this is NEW list of components in order:

compressor -> vibration absorber -> 1/2" ACR -> thermal switch cutout (on exterior of pipe) -> condenser 1/2" port (top) -> condenser -> condenser large port (bottom) ->

1/2" ACR -> High pressuer cutout -> 1/2" ACR -> SLHX -> 1/2" ACR ->
service port -> filter/dryer (outlet down) -> sight glass ->

2T R22 external bulb TXV -> 1/2" ACR -> service port -> low pressure cutout ->

evaporator small port (bottom) -> evaporator -> evaporator large port (top) ->
3/4" ACR -> SLHX -> 3/4" ACR ->

sight glass -> large accumulator -> vibration absorber -> compressor

Is 1/2" ACR between TXV & evaporator big enough?

BBP


Last edited by buffalobillpatrick; 03-30-14 at 08:20 PM..
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