Old farm house, options? - Page 2

AC_Hacker · 11-07-09, 10:10 AM

charlie_D,

Quote:

Originally Posted by charlie_D

I'm still uncertain how to insulate the doors leading to the vented crawlspace up there. They open out into the room, and they're just wood plank. Nothing I can attach insulation onto to make a proper seal.

Wind blowing in? Plank doors? Pregnant wife?

Charlie_D, I think you have an emergency on your hands.

If you're talking about a vertical wood plank door, what with winter coming on AND a baby, I'd say do what works for now and work out an elegant solution in the spring.

I tell you, hanging a heavy sleeping bag over a leaky door or window can work wonders.

As Piwoslaw said in this post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piwoslaw

Here in Poland quilts have been in action for decades, if not centuries. During the winter, many stores and homes have one hanging about 1-2 meters in from the entrance, creating a vestibule. This keeps the warm air in the rest of the space from exiting when the door is open. Unfortunately some stores, especially the high-end fancy ones, don't want to have anything to do with quilts. For some unknown reason they prefer to keep their doors wide open year round, in the summer heat and in the freezing cold. They think that a blower over the entrance creates an air curtain holding the cool/warmth in. It makes me cringe when I see this.

Piwoslaw is from Poland, they've got some smart people in Poland. They have learned a few things about surviving winters.

I'd start haunting thrift shops and Goodwill stores and hunt for some thick quilts or sleeping bags. You should be able to find something in the $5 to $10 range. If you say the secret incantation, "pregnant wife", they'll probably give the stuff to you for free. That's why they're there...

Regards,

_AC_Hacker

Christ · 11-07-09, 10:50 AM

Just my opinion, but the dish washer is probably more efficient than hand washing anyway, as long as it's used in an efficient way.

Especially if you rinse your dishes before they get put in the dishwasher, to get rid of excess food waste and sticky messes. They can be rinsed in cold water after a meal to get that stuff off, and then the dishwasher does the actual work.

The thing is, the dishwasher does alot more dishes in alot less time, and does them more effectively, and all with the same load of water, as opposed to having to drain/refill the sink several times.

Just use soap without phosphates in it. It's in everyone's best interests.

charlie_D · 11-07-09, 09:26 PM

Okay, this'll have to be split over two posts, but here we go...

Here's an image of the switch in the atic. It lights the crawl space, and the atic itself. You can see the crawl space through it.

This is the door to the east-north-west side crawl space. Marvel at the plank-y construction:

It's open! Ignore the knob and tube wiring you can see there; it's been disconnected, it's just providing structural support now.

Here's a view just inside the crawl space. That screened hole is the roof venting; we're basically outside now.

Here's an image immediately to my right; it's the light switch.

Slightly more to come...

Charlie

charlie_D · 11-07-09, 09:35 PM

Part 2:

Here's the 'door' on the other side:

And here I've pulled it back to reveal the gooey filling. It's less of a crawl space, and more of a crawl hole on this side; it only goes in about 5 feet, and then another 2 feet on the south side. The other one wraps around the house:

This is a shot of the atic ceiling. Insulated... mostly:

Here's the hatch, a major culprit in summer and winter. If the sun was out, you could actually see daylight through a small nail hole in the centre of it:

Finally, here's a shot of the hot water tank(s), and my son, who had to have his picture taken, or so he told me. Ignore the blue-topped tank, it's not hooked up, they never had it removed when they replaced it, and I haven't dollied it out yet. Too many other priorities

So, there are the shots. I also took a picture of the furnace, I'll post it if anyone is interested.

Charlie

charlie_D · 11-07-09, 09:39 PM

Oh and on a quick note: I'll start looking for thick quilts for the doors. That atic is a curious mix of lath and plaster and dry wall... but it's huge, easily the biggest room in the house at about 780sq feet, so eventually I'd like to make it liveable

Christ · 11-07-09, 09:50 PM

Looks like for now, blocking the crawl spaces is in order. Come spring, it may be prudent to just knock those interior walls out and make the crawl space an interior space, insulating as necessary.

Caulking helps with drafties all winter, but it's certainly not a permanent fix for large gaps. It will eventually shrink, crack, etc.. The proper fix is usually pull the culprit boards/trim and fix/replace them. Unfortunately, this will usually expose more problems with each board you pull, and it can really snowball, which is why you only do one area at a time. A full remodel is NEVER a necessity, as some would make it seem. If there were enough damage to require a full remodel of an area of the house, you shouldn't be living in it.

The plank constructed door can be a really elegant thing if done correctly, but when you can literally see through the gaps all around it, it's probably not so nice. Assuming it opens outward, you can crawl into the space behind it, make note of where it closes, and add fur strips around it's perimeter, with weatherstrip sealers on them. You can then stretch/hang a layer of plastic on the door, and then stretch/hang an old blanket on the back of the plastic. The plastic could be an old garbage bag, if you were so inclined. (I reuse my garbage bags, cuz I'm cheap, so I've always got an "old one" laying around.)

For now, the crawl area that has no real door over it, you could just remove the door altogether, screw a board over the top of the opening, and hang a heavy sleeping bag or canvas tarp over it, making sure it's tightly fastened around the sides and top. This, of course, assumes that you don't need access to that area over the winter.

Water heater, see if you can get some cheap salvage insulation from a neighbor's remodel, and make yourself an insulation jacket for it. Make sure you also give it a hat and boots. Regarding the other water heater (that isn't hooked up) at some point, you could use it for heat storage from the shower drain or similar waste heat source, or you could use it for a Johnny Appleseed biodiesel converter, etc... there are many good uses for it.

Unfortunately, with light switches and fixtures, either gaskets or caulk are about the only proofing you can do, that I'm aware of. In some cases, you'll want to use both.

Regarding the water heater again, if it's any indicator, your pipes really need insulation, as well.

charlie_D · 11-09-09, 04:33 PM

As you can on the inside of the lath-and-plaster wall there, there's no insulation in the walls up there. My current plan is to get a load of insulation and shove it in there. That still leaves the slanted ceiling... the information I got from the previous owners was that they had insulated it, but I took a flashlight inside... and nope, nothin' but air!

Also, aside from a few drywall patch-ups, it looks like 90% of that slanted wall is also lath-and-plaster. So, the plan has evolved into tearing it down, insulating behind, and applying drywall.

Will all that get done this winter? I'm not sure. At the moment I can keep most of the heat loss down (hopefully) by closing the atic door. As I said, it's got some weather stripping on it.

Still, I have 4 days off next week, for my switch back to day shifts. Maybe I'll get ambitious? For sure, I'll get that hatch insulated, anyway.

Charlie

charlie_D · 11-10-09, 05:25 PM

I said likely not this winter, but I get obsessive about these things... so, while on my night shift I read through 'keeping the heat in', here's a link to the online version (released by Natural Resources Canada):
Keeping the Heat In

You can either browse it there, or download it in PDF format. I was looking specifically at the atic section, under Other Complications -> Wall of Heated Room. It basically states that you should plastic between each wall joist, fit batt insulation in there, and then cover over the studs with a layer of rigid insulation. It should both increase the R value, and help cut down thermal bridging.

I like this little booklet a lot, lots of good info... I already bought enough batt insulation to hopefully fill the vertical walls :P I'm still thinking I'll tear down the angled ceiling in spring, but it may bother me enough to clear everything out and do it sooner.

Charlie

AC_Hacker · 11-10-09, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charlie_D

I said likely not this winter, but I get obsessive about these things... so, while on my night shift I read through 'keeping the heat in', here's a link to the online version (released by Natural Resources Canada):
Keeping the Heat In

This is such an important resource, it deserves to be in a more prominant part of EcoRenovator.

-AC_Hacker

Bicycle Bob · 11-10-09, 09:27 PM

There are lots of options for a leak test besides a blower door. A window, or one of your major leaks would probably work fine. It should be easy to borrow a half-dozen box fans this time of year. However, careful observation with strong wind from various directions should work, too. The least-usual wind direction may be the most valuable to spot where heat usually goes. You may find that adding plastic film to the windows should start from the surrounding wall. Even new windows may be poorly sealed.
If you do seal off the attic, be sure to block the heat vents well. My last winter in Winterpeg, we were mostly huddled on the top floor of a house, because that's where the heat was.
Could we get a shot of the nameplate of that "furnace?"
An infrared thermometer is handy for finding insulation gaps, etc, and gets under $35 on sale.

11-07-09, 09:26 PM	#13
charlie_D Lurking Renovator Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Manitoba, Canada Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Okay, this'll have to be split over two posts, but here we go... Here's an image of the switch in the atic. It lights the crawl space, and the atic itself. You can see the crawl space through it. This is the door to the east-north-west side crawl space. Marvel at the plank-y construction: It's open! Ignore the knob and tube wiring you can see there; it's been disconnected, it's just providing structural support now. Here's a view just inside the crawl space. That screened hole is the roof venting; we're basically outside now. Here's an image immediately to my right; it's the light switch. Slightly more to come... Charlie Attached Thumbnails

11-07-09, 09:35 PM	#14
charlie_D Lurking Renovator Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Manitoba, Canada Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Part 2: Here's the 'door' on the other side: And here I've pulled it back to reveal the gooey filling. It's less of a crawl space, and more of a crawl hole on this side; it only goes in about 5 feet, and then another 2 feet on the south side. The other one wraps around the house: This is a shot of the atic ceiling. Insulated... mostly: Here's the hatch, a major culprit in summer and winter. If the sun was out, you could actually see daylight through a small nail hole in the centre of it: Finally, here's a shot of the hot water tank(s), and my son, who had to have his picture taken, or so he told me. Ignore the blue-topped tank, it's not hooked up, they never had it removed when they replaced it, and I haven't dollied it out yet. Too many other priorities So, there are the shots. I also took a picture of the furnace, I'll post it if anyone is interested. Charlie Attached Thumbnails

11-07-09, 10:50 AM	#12
Christ Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 123 Thanks: 14 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Just my opinion, but the dish washer is probably more efficient than hand washing anyway, as long as it's used in an efficient way. Especially if you rinse your dishes before they get put in the dishwasher, to get rid of excess food waste and sticky messes. They can be rinsed in cold water after a meal to get that stuff off, and then the dishwasher does the actual work. The thing is, the dishwasher does alot more dishes in alot less time, and does them more effectively, and all with the same load of water, as opposed to having to drain/refill the sink several times. Just use soap without phosphates in it. It's in everyone's best interests.

11-07-09, 09:39 PM	#15
charlie_D Lurking Renovator Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Manitoba, Canada Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Oh and on a quick note: I'll start looking for thick quilts for the doors. That atic is a curious mix of lath and plaster and dry wall... but it's huge, easily the biggest room in the house at about 780sq feet, so eventually I'd like to make it liveable

11-07-09, 09:50 PM	#16
Christ Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 123 Thanks: 14 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Looks like for now, blocking the crawl spaces is in order. Come spring, it may be prudent to just knock those interior walls out and make the crawl space an interior space, insulating as necessary. Caulking helps with drafties all winter, but it's certainly not a permanent fix for large gaps. It will eventually shrink, crack, etc.. The proper fix is usually pull the culprit boards/trim and fix/replace them. Unfortunately, this will usually expose more problems with each board you pull, and it can really snowball, which is why you only do one area at a time. A full remodel is NEVER a necessity, as some would make it seem. If there were enough damage to require a full remodel of an area of the house, you shouldn't be living in it. The plank constructed door can be a really elegant thing if done correctly, but when you can literally see through the gaps all around it, it's probably not so nice. Assuming it opens outward, you can crawl into the space behind it, make note of where it closes, and add fur strips around it's perimeter, with weatherstrip sealers on them. You can then stretch/hang a layer of plastic on the door, and then stretch/hang an old blanket on the back of the plastic. The plastic could be an old garbage bag, if you were so inclined. (I reuse my garbage bags, cuz I'm cheap, so I've always got an "old one" laying around.) For now, the crawl area that has no real door over it, you could just remove the door altogether, screw a board over the top of the opening, and hang a heavy sleeping bag or canvas tarp over it, making sure it's tightly fastened around the sides and top. This, of course, assumes that you don't need access to that area over the winter. Water heater, see if you can get some cheap salvage insulation from a neighbor's remodel, and make yourself an insulation jacket for it. Make sure you also give it a hat and boots. Regarding the other water heater (that isn't hooked up) at some point, you could use it for heat storage from the shower drain or similar waste heat source, or you could use it for a Johnny Appleseed biodiesel converter, etc... there are many good uses for it. Unfortunately, with light switches and fixtures, either gaskets or caulk are about the only proofing you can do, that I'm aware of. In some cases, you'll want to use both. Regarding the water heater again, if it's any indicator, your pipes really need insulation, as well.

11-09-09, 04:33 PM	#17
charlie_D Lurking Renovator Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Manitoba, Canada Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	As you can on the inside of the lath-and-plaster wall there, there's no insulation in the walls up there. My current plan is to get a load of insulation and shove it in there. That still leaves the slanted ceiling... the information I got from the previous owners was that they had insulated it, but I took a flashlight inside... and nope, nothin' but air! Also, aside from a few drywall patch-ups, it looks like 90% of that slanted wall is also lath-and-plaster. So, the plan has evolved into tearing it down, insulating behind, and applying drywall. Will all that get done this winter? I'm not sure. At the moment I can keep most of the heat loss down (hopefully) by closing the atic door. As I said, it's got some weather stripping on it. Still, I have 4 days off next week, for my switch back to day shifts. Maybe I'll get ambitious? For sure, I'll get that hatch insulated, anyway. Charlie

11-10-09, 05:25 PM	#18
charlie_D Lurking Renovator Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Manitoba, Canada Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I said likely not this winter, but I get obsessive about these things... so, while on my night shift I read through 'keeping the heat in', here's a link to the online version (released by Natural Resources Canada): Keeping the Heat In You can either browse it there, or download it in PDF format. I was looking specifically at the atic section, under Other Complications -> Wall of Heated Room. It basically states that you should plastic between each wall joist, fit batt insulation in there, and then cover over the studs with a layer of rigid insulation. It should both increase the R value, and help cut down thermal bridging. I like this little booklet a lot, lots of good info... I already bought enough batt insulation to hopefully fill the vertical walls :P I'm still thinking I'll tear down the angled ceiling in spring, but it may bother me enough to clear everything out and do it sooner. Charlie

11-10-09, 09:27 PM	#20
Bicycle Bob Suncatcher Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Spiritwood, Northern Saskatchewan Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	There are lots of options for a leak test besides a blower door. A window, or one of your major leaks would probably work fine. It should be easy to borrow a half-dozen box fans this time of year. However, careful observation with strong wind from various directions should work, too. The least-usual wind direction may be the most valuable to spot where heat usually goes. You may find that adding plastic film to the windows should start from the surrounding wall. Even new windows may be poorly sealed. If you do seal off the attic, be sure to block the heat vents well. My last winter in Winterpeg, we were mostly huddled on the top floor of a house, because that's where the heat was. Could we get a shot of the nameplate of that "furnace?" An infrared thermometer is handy for finding insulation gaps, etc, and gets under $35 on sale.