Solar water preheater project based on builditsolar $1000 system - Page 7

Rydog · 09-23-11, 05:27 PM

I like your original design! Its actually pretty dead on from what I am doing for my school thesis. I am pretty sure that I will not be calling in the city when installing after seeing what you have gone through! Not to hijack your thread but what pump are you going with? I cannot find one to overcome the 20' head I have...

Best of luck to you!

GaryGary · 09-23-11, 08:57 PM

Hi,
There are a few pumps that will do 20 ft vertical head on startup.

The Taco 009 is one -- I think the Grundfos 58-15 on the number 1 speed will also do it -- both good solid pumps. I use two fo the Grundfos 58-15's -- they are so quiet you have to touch them to see if they are running.

Some pump curves:
New Page 1

I take that back on the 58-15 -- its just a bit short of what you need.

Gary

strider3700 · 09-23-11, 11:24 PM

I'm thinking of going with the builditsolar CPU cooling pump. I only have about 10' of lift. For the circulating pumps they will definitely be the CPU pumps.

strider3700 · 10-08-11, 03:55 AM

I ran into a problem today.

I was digging the hole for the tank in the back yard. it needed to be roughly 5'x4'x4'. I got down to 3'6" in one area and hit a sewer pipe that I knew was in the area but hoped would be deeper. I figured I could work around that by moving the entire tank 6" further forward and just missing the pipe. I continued digging and in the opposite corner I hit what must be the old septic system tank. We've been on sewer since the early 70's at the latest but the house was originally on septic. Anyways following that tank along It's only 1 1/2 feet down and is really fricking big and in the way. So this makes things far harder. My original location no longer works for the tank, it would have to be roughly 8' over or 5' further from the house then I had originally wanted. This just isn't going to work so I need to figure something else out.

I could build a tank and place it indoors. This is more expensive then my free tank, and takes up a bunch of space in the laundry area. Also if it fails it's my basement that will be flooded.

I can leave the tank in the carport. the top of the tank is roughly 1/2" above the top of the foundation wall. So the lines to/from the connectors would be above ground by a few inches near the wall. Remember this is a drainback system. This isn't a huge deal but is a bit of a pain. I had planned on adding 6" of insulation under the tank however. This would leave the lines about 10" above ground level and they would stick up at least 4' or 5' before going back underground. that is going to get in the way. Perhaps I'll live with 2" of insulation under the tank. Perhaps I'll live with none...

Really the big issue is getting the water from the tank into the heat exchanger inside the house. the lines would have to leave the tank go up 5' to the ceiling, run along a joist 10' then do a 90, move another 10' drop down the wall about 3' and then go through a 90 intothe wall, move 30' drop down 6 or 7' to the heat exchanger then return back to the tank. this is going to take a pretty serious pump is my guess.

Also my carport is open to the weather so freezing of the line is possible. I could wrap it in pipe insulation and hope for the best. The other thing I could do is monitor the temp in the line and sacrifice heat from the tank by pumping heated water through it when it's getting close to freezing. Not optimal but possible.

randen · 10-09-11, 03:28 PM

Stryder3700 wrote:
I ran into a problem today.

Sometimes problems are really not problems, but a diamond in the ruff. The old tank could be cleaned and lined with insulation. A liner (vinyl or rubber)could be used inside the insulation. I had read were either a septic tank or a vault for underground electrical transformer had been utilized for a hot water storage tank only he had insulated the exterior and buried it. He had a large collector that was space heating and heating his hot tub. There are professionals that remove the contents of septic systems with a vacuum tank truck. From time to time we need to clean out our septic tank and its not really that expensive. With a pressure washer and some cleaning products while the large vacuum is on I think would do a good job. The great thing is you have a free large in-ground storage tank already buried it has a two holes cut for access for the heat-exchangers and a nice sturdy lid.

Randen

strider3700 · 10-09-11, 03:44 PM

unfortunately it's probably close to 50 years old and is partially collapsed so I won't be able to use it.

strider3700 · 10-18-11, 09:44 PM

I think I've made some decisions today.

First off was panel placement. I used a piece of polyiso the size of 1 pane of glass that I have. It's 76"x34" or 18 sqft. My original plan was to build 4 identical panels and run them in a standard riser design side by side.

Here is what 1 of them would look like

Not the most stealthy and that's a big black wall with 4 side by side.

here's if I lay it down however

much more stealthy in my opinion. I could then lay two of them end to end as 1 big 152"x34" hizer design panel. at only 36 sqft it's not a great amount of collector but it's better then nothing. I also happen to have enough copper to do it.

That location gets the most sun of anywhere in my yard short of the front roof which gets perfect exposure 365 days a year. This location loses a bit at the very end of day due to the fence. It's not a loss worth worrying about.

The tank location is likely to be in the carport where it's been sitting waiting for install for the last 2 years now. It will easily be drainback from the panels but it definitely won't be to inside the house and the heat exchanger. I still need to figure that out. Really in the original location I wanted it wouldn't have been drainback either just the amount of pipe needing heavily insulated was only a couple of feet.... Nothing that more insulation can't fix right?

<edit> I forgot to mention that the tank works out to 150ish gallons. this puts it on the large side for this amount of collector and the the 36sqft of collector on the low side for my family. I can always figure out how to add two more collectors in the future if need be. </edit>

strider3700 · 12-23-11, 04:31 PM

SO a year ago I went to apply for a building permit for a solar hotwater setup. It would have been approved except all components including the collectors need CSA or equivalent approval. This is part of the federal building code which my province has adopted which my city has adopted.

Trying to get this changed has gone nowhere in a year of working at it. Lip service from some, well that's life from others.

Before going flat out guerrilla I figured what the hell I can build a collector that meets the requirements what's involved in getting it certified? Today I got back my answer. Some paperwork, a test panel sent to be tested and $10,000 - $20,000 is all I need.

So I'm just going to verify that copper pipe connected via silver solder in a box insulated with polyiso, glazed with twin wall and some fancy flashing work making sure it's got some good sturdy attachment legs so it won't fly away really costs $10,000-$20,000 to verify that it's safe. Assuming it really does cost that much my quest for certification dies unless I find a way to get that cost covered.

ANyways I had never been able to find info on what something like this actually costs. I had hoped it was $1000-$5000 based on the tests it needs to pass but I was grossly mistaken. I just thought I'd share in case anyone else was thinking of taking this route.

Now I know why I work in software.

This also explains why a guy in newfoundland can build hot air collectors out of beercans in insulated boxes with a piece of acrylic or some other plastic glazing and charge $2500 a piece for them. He needs to to get his certification costs back.

Jamie

10-09-11, 03:28 PM	#65
randen Uber EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Strathroy Ontario Canada Posts: 657 Thanks: 9 Thanked 191 Times in 129 Posts	Maybe not a problem Stryder3700 wrote: I ran into a problem today. Sometimes problems are really not problems, but a diamond in the ruff. The old tank could be cleaned and lined with insulation. A liner (vinyl or rubber)could be used inside the insulation. I had read were either a septic tank or a vault for underground electrical transformer had been utilized for a hot water storage tank only he had insulated the exterior and buried it. He had a large collector that was space heating and heating his hot tub. There are professionals that remove the contents of septic systems with a vacuum tank truck. From time to time we need to clean out our septic tank and its not really that expensive. With a pressure washer and some cleaning products while the large vacuum is on I think would do a good job. The great thing is you have a free large in-ground storage tank already buried it has a two holes cut for access for the heat-exchangers and a nice sturdy lid. Randen

10-18-11, 09:44 PM	#67
strider3700 Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Vancouver Island BC Posts: 745 Thanks: 23 Thanked 37 Times in 30 Posts	I think I've made some decisions today. First off was panel placement. I used a piece of polyiso the size of 1 pane of glass that I have. It's 76"x34" or 18 sqft. My original plan was to build 4 identical panels and run them in a standard riser design side by side. Here is what 1 of them would look like Not the most stealthy and that's a big black wall with 4 side by side. here's if I lay it down however much more stealthy in my opinion. I could then lay two of them end to end as 1 big 152"x34" hizer design panel. at only 36 sqft it's not a great amount of collector but it's better then nothing. I also happen to have enough copper to do it. That location gets the most sun of anywhere in my yard short of the front roof which gets perfect exposure 365 days a year. This location loses a bit at the very end of day due to the fence. It's not a loss worth worrying about. The tank location is likely to be in the carport where it's been sitting waiting for install for the last 2 years now. It will easily be drainback from the panels but it definitely won't be to inside the house and the heat exchanger. I still need to figure that out. Really in the original location I wanted it wouldn't have been drainback either just the amount of pipe needing heavily insulated was only a couple of feet.... Nothing that more insulation can't fix right? <edit> I forgot to mention that the tank works out to 150ish gallons. this puts it on the large side for this amount of collector and the the 36sqft of collector on the low side for my family. I can always figure out how to add two more collectors in the future if need be. </edit> Last edited by strider3700; 10-18-11 at 10:15 PM..

09-23-11, 05:27 PM	#61
Rydog Lurking Renovator Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Catawba NC Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I like your original design! Its actually pretty dead on from what I am doing for my school thesis. I am pretty sure that I will not be calling in the city when installing after seeing what you have gone through! Not to hijack your thread but what pump are you going with? I cannot find one to overcome the 20' head I have... Best of luck to you!

09-23-11, 08:57 PM	#62
GaryGary Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: SW Montana Posts: 139 Thanks: 1 Thanked 21 Times in 15 Posts	Hi, There are a few pumps that will do 20 ft vertical head on startup. The Taco 009 is one -- I think the Grundfos 58-15 on the number 1 speed will also do it -- both good solid pumps. I use two fo the Grundfos 58-15's -- they are so quiet you have to touch them to see if they are running. Some pump curves: New Page 1 I take that back on the 58-15 -- its just a bit short of what you need. Gary

09-23-11, 11:24 PM	#63
strider3700 Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Vancouver Island BC Posts: 745 Thanks: 23 Thanked 37 Times in 30 Posts	I'm thinking of going with the builditsolar CPU cooling pump. I only have about 10' of lift. For the circulating pumps they will definitely be the CPU pumps.

10-08-11, 03:55 AM	#64
strider3700 Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Vancouver Island BC Posts: 745 Thanks: 23 Thanked 37 Times in 30 Posts	I ran into a problem today. I was digging the hole for the tank in the back yard. it needed to be roughly 5'x4'x4'. I got down to 3'6" in one area and hit a sewer pipe that I knew was in the area but hoped would be deeper. I figured I could work around that by moving the entire tank 6" further forward and just missing the pipe. I continued digging and in the opposite corner I hit what must be the old septic system tank. We've been on sewer since the early 70's at the latest but the house was originally on septic. Anyways following that tank along It's only 1 1/2 feet down and is really fricking big and in the way. So this makes things far harder. My original location no longer works for the tank, it would have to be roughly 8' over or 5' further from the house then I had originally wanted. This just isn't going to work so I need to figure something else out. I could build a tank and place it indoors. This is more expensive then my free tank, and takes up a bunch of space in the laundry area. Also if it fails it's my basement that will be flooded. I can leave the tank in the carport. the top of the tank is roughly 1/2" above the top of the foundation wall. So the lines to/from the connectors would be above ground by a few inches near the wall. Remember this is a drainback system. This isn't a huge deal but is a bit of a pain. I had planned on adding 6" of insulation under the tank however. This would leave the lines about 10" above ground level and they would stick up at least 4' or 5' before going back underground. that is going to get in the way. Perhaps I'll live with 2" of insulation under the tank. Perhaps I'll live with none... Really the big issue is getting the water from the tank into the heat exchanger inside the house. the lines would have to leave the tank go up 5' to the ceiling, run along a joist 10' then do a 90, move another 10' drop down the wall about 3' and then go through a 90 intothe wall, move 30' drop down 6 or 7' to the heat exchanger then return back to the tank. this is going to take a pretty serious pump is my guess. Also my carport is open to the weather so freezing of the line is possible. I could wrap it in pipe insulation and hope for the best. The other thing I could do is monitor the temp in the line and sacrifice heat from the tank by pumping heated water through it when it's getting close to freezing. Not optimal but possible.

10-09-11, 03:44 PM	#66
strider3700 Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Vancouver Island BC Posts: 745 Thanks: 23 Thanked 37 Times in 30 Posts	unfortunately it's probably close to 50 years old and is partially collapsed so I won't be able to use it.

12-23-11, 04:31 PM	#68
strider3700 Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Vancouver Island BC Posts: 745 Thanks: 23 Thanked 37 Times in 30 Posts	SO a year ago I went to apply for a building permit for a solar hotwater setup. It would have been approved except all components including the collectors need CSA or equivalent approval. This is part of the federal building code which my province has adopted which my city has adopted. Trying to get this changed has gone nowhere in a year of working at it. Lip service from some, well that's life from others. Before going flat out guerrilla I figured what the hell I can build a collector that meets the requirements what's involved in getting it certified? Today I got back my answer. Some paperwork, a test panel sent to be tested and $10,000 - $20,000 is all I need. So I'm just going to verify that copper pipe connected via silver solder in a box insulated with polyiso, glazed with twin wall and some fancy flashing work making sure it's got some good sturdy attachment legs so it won't fly away really costs $10,000-$20,000 to verify that it's safe. Assuming it really does cost that much my quest for certification dies unless I find a way to get that cost covered. ANyways I had never been able to find info on what something like this actually costs. I had hoped it was $1000-$5000 based on the tests it needs to pass but I was grossly mistaken. I just thought I'd share in case anyone else was thinking of taking this route. Now I know why I work in software. This also explains why a guy in newfoundland can build hot air collectors out of beercans in insulated boxes with a piece of acrylic or some other plastic glazing and charge $2500 a piece for them. He needs to to get his certification costs back. Jamie