EcoRenovator  

Go Back   EcoRenovator > Improvements > Geothermal & Heat Pumps
Advanced Search
 


Blog 60+ Home Energy Saving Tips Recent Posts Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-10-14, 09:42 AM   #1671
jeff5may
Supreme EcoRenovator
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: elizabethtown, ky, USA
Posts: 2,353
Thanks: 369
Thanked 593 Times in 496 Posts
Send a message via Yahoo to jeff5may
Default not as easy as it sounds

Quote:
Originally Posted by nokiasixteth View Post
I think i will try number 2. Or 1 with the wires. I have a workin knowledge of wires and eletrical . When it comes to this hvac stuff . I dont have a clue.
Maybe a snap disk switch on that coil that would keep it from freezin up ?




If you have a unit with an electric temp sensor, the control (pushbutton) is not just a thermostat. It is also a fan control and can do many other things depending on the model. Some analysis and reverse-engineering must happen before you can assume control of what's built into the unit. That being said, you can usually move the temp sensor so that it faces indoors and just set the unit as cold as it will go. If you're lucky, you can unplug the unit, plug it back in, and it will resume what it was doing before it lost power. Your mileage may vary.


vintage


older


modern

If you have a window unit with a mechanical (knob) thermostat, it is fairly easy to replace it. For instance, you could rig the unit with a SPDT heat/cool switch that would keep the built-in thermostat working as original during cooling season. Flip the switch to heat mode, and rig up a heating temp control to use during heating season. No problem, right?

Wrong.



The problem you will encounter happens this time of year, when you need heat the most. When the outdoor temps are above, say 40 DegF, the unit will belt out the heat nonstop. My 12000 BTU (1 ton) unit uses around 1000 watts wall power and pushes 2000 watts of heat (or more) indoors at this temp. But as the temps drop closer to freezing, the outdoor coil will freeze up and kill the heat-moving ability of the unit. Without a way to remove the frost from the outdoor coil, all you can do is shut off the compressor and hope the frost will melt on its own. If it won't, you're finished until it warms up outside.



The "snap disc" or "klixon" switch method will work as an outdoor temp sensor to tell the unit when it is too cold to run without frosting up. But to use it in a defrost control, it needs to be put on a timer to avoid short-cycling your unit to death.


Last edited by jeff5may; 01-11-14 at 10:54 PM.. Reason: cuz ac said so
jeff5may is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to jeff5may For This Useful Post:
AC_Hacker (01-12-14)
Old 01-10-14, 11:18 AM   #1672
AC_Hacker
Supreme EcoRenovator
 
AC_Hacker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,002
Thanks: 303
Thanked 703 Times in 526 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff5may View Post
If you have a unit with an electric temp sensor, the control (pushbutton) is not just a thermostat. It is also a fan control and can do many other things depending on the model.
Any chance that you could edit in some photos or diagrams into this useful post?

-AC
__________________
I'm not an HVAC technician. In fact, I'm barely even a hacker...
AC_Hacker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-14, 07:37 PM   #1673
nokiasixteth
Journeyman EcoRenovator
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: richton ms
Posts: 323
Thanks: 38
Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff5may View Post
If you have a unit with an electric temp sensor, the control (pushbutton) is not just a thermostat. It is also a fan control and can do many other things depending on the model. Some analysis and reverse-engineering must happen before you can assume control of what's built into the unit. That being said, you can usually move the temp sensor so that it faces indoors and just set the unit as cold as it will go. If you're lucky, you can unplug the unit, plug it back in, and it will resume what it was doing before it lost power. Your mileage may vary.

If you have a window unit with a mechanical (knob) thermostat, it is fairly easy to replace it. For instance, you could rig the unit with a SPDT heat/cool switch that would keep the built-in thermostat working as original during cooling season. Flip the switch to heat mode, and rig up a heating temp control to use during heating season. No problem, right?

Wrong.

The problem you will encounter happens this time of year, when you need heat the most. When the outdoor temps are above, say 40 DegF, the unit will belt out the heat nonstop. My 12000 BTU (1 ton) unit uses around 1000 watts wall power and pushes 2000 watts of heat (or more) indoors at this temp. But as the temps drop closer to freezing, the outdoor coil will freeze up and kill the heat-moving ability of the unit. Without a way to remove the frost from the outdoor coil, all you can do is shut off the compressor and hope the frost will melt on its own. If it won't, you're finished until it warms up outside.

The "snap disc" or "klixon" switch method will work as an outdoor temp sensor to tell the unit when it is too cold to run without frosting up. But to use it in a defrost control, it needs to be put on a timer to avoid short-cycling your unit to death.
Sounds good . What im thinkin of doin to deal with the frosting is fix a snap disk switch of some sort on the back and hook a water pump from a handdug well beside it to push water on the coils. to defrost it have it cycle on the water once it got to a certain temp then off once it reached a high enough temp. But Really thinking of making my unit in the wall use well water in a water to freon heat exchanger . Or what ever its supposed to be called . Like Ac hacker has did. But not sure on the brazing yet.
nokiasixteth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-14, 07:39 PM   #1674
nokiasixteth
Journeyman EcoRenovator
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: richton ms
Posts: 323
Thanks: 38
Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts
Default

The unit i am using Has the new controls not the old turn the switch controll. I may could get the old one that uses the turn knob though.
nokiasixteth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-14, 10:06 AM   #1675
jfweaver
Lurking Renovator
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: SC
Posts: 15
Thanks: 1
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

AC_Hacker- Thank you for making this thread, it has taken me a few nights to read it all and that is with skimming over some of the longer posts.

I do want to point out one thing you may have misconstrued about the cascaded chillers on XtremesSystems. While a lot of people overclock their systems to improve the performance of their machines for gaming, the cascaded chillers are primarily used by people who overclock their machines for the overclocking aspect alone. Usually the world records are set by people who use LN2 (liquid nitrogen) based cooling, but the cascaded chillers do have benefits for CPUs and video cards who may not work correctly at such low temperatures. The refrigerant based systems also have the benefit of not requiring the tester to constantly fill the coolers with LN2. Really all they are doing is tweaking and modding and testing their machines to see how fast they can go. Its like drag racing for people with computers.
jfweaver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-14, 06:08 PM   #1676
BeerGrylls
Lurking Renovator
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Austria
Posts: 25
Thanks: 1
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

Hey guys,
been poking inside the unit this night (few minutes ago) while it was running. I just love taking things apart or looking at what they have inside. Anyway, I think I discovered that my unit does not have a cap tube setup as I initially thought, but an Electronic Expansion Valve, most probably SanHua make ( I assume based on the fact that the reversing valve is also Sanhua). Given the fact that I will probably ask a million questions during my conversion, I guess it is time to open a new thread of mine, I really hope you guys will be visiting mine and offer some help there, the Manifesto is an awesome thread (thanks AC) but I don't want to de-focus it.
Cheers,
F

PS - started thread here: http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothe...iscussion.html

Last edited by BeerGrylls; 01-11-14 at 07:25 PM.. Reason: typo
BeerGrylls is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to BeerGrylls For This Useful Post:
AC_Hacker (01-12-14)
Old 01-11-14, 07:39 PM   #1677
AC_Hacker
Supreme EcoRenovator
 
AC_Hacker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,002
Thanks: 303
Thanked 703 Times in 526 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfweaver View Post
AC_Hacker- Thank you for making this thread, it has taken me a few nights to read it all and that is with skimming over some of the longer posts.

I do want to point out one thing you may have misconstrued about the cascaded chillers on XtremesSystems. While a lot of people overclock their systems to improve the performance of their machines for gaming, the cascaded chillers are primarily used by people who overclock their machines for the overclocking aspect alone. Usually the world records are set by people who use LN2 (liquid nitrogen) based cooling, but the cascaded chillers do have benefits for CPUs and video cards who may not work correctly at such low temperatures. The refrigerant based systems also have the benefit of not requiring the tester to constantly fill the coolers with LN2. Really all they are doing is tweaking and modding and testing their machines to see how fast they can go. Its like drag racing for people with computers.
Thanks for taking the time to read the 'Manifesto'.

I'm still not clear what you are referring to that I might have misconstrued.

I have found the Extreme systems forum very helpful, and I learned a great deal about refrigeration hacking there. However I didn't have much luck in momentarily re-directing their expertise to issues I was having with GSHPs.

As far as I can see, a properly designed Cascade System could be the answer to building a good ASHP that would be run in a very cold climate.

-AC
__________________
I'm not an HVAC technician. In fact, I'm barely even a hacker...

Last edited by AC_Hacker; 01-12-14 at 05:53 PM..
AC_Hacker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-14, 11:01 PM   #1678
jfweaver
Lurking Renovator
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: SC
Posts: 15
Thanks: 1
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC_Hacker View Post
Thanks for taking the time to read the 'Manifesto'.

I'm still not clear what you are referring to that I might have misconstrued.

I have found the Extreme systems forum very helpful, and I learned a great deal about refrigerastion hacking there. However I didn't have much luck in momentarily re-directing their expertise to issues I was having with GSHPs.

As far as I can see, a properly designed Cascade System could be the answer to building a good ASHP that would be run in a very cold climate.

-AC
What I mean is the people who build/buy/use the cascaded chillers there do it just so they can say they have the fastest systems, and for no other reason. Think of it like hot rodding.

Some of the lower end (as far as performance goes) systems are used in "daily driver" PCs.

Last edited by jfweaver; 01-11-14 at 11:27 PM..
jfweaver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-14, 05:52 PM   #1679
AC_Hacker
Supreme EcoRenovator
 
AC_Hacker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,002
Thanks: 303
Thanked 703 Times in 526 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfweaver View Post
What I mean is the people who build/buy/use the cascaded chillers there do it just so they can say they have the fastest systems, and for no other reason. Think of it like hot rodding.
jfweaver,

Yes, for sure, I do understand that.

But what is obviously of most interest to me is what is coming out of the other end of the cascade systems.

I mean when you have an extreme system that is able to force a CPU to ungodly-low temperatures, it means that the same cascade technology could be used to extract heat from air that is only partially warmer than ungodly-low temperatures.

Same tech. The Extreme guys are interested in the cold end, we're interested in the hot end. Same tech.

-AC
__________________
I'm not an HVAC technician. In fact, I'm barely even a hacker...
AC_Hacker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-14, 06:11 PM   #1680
BeerGrylls
Lurking Renovator
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Austria
Posts: 25
Thanks: 1
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC_Hacker View Post
jfweaver,

Same tech. The Extreme guys are interested in the cold end, we're interested in the hot end. Same tech.

-AC
I guess a potential problem is that the guys wanting to cool their pc gear are not necessarily concerned with power consumption. We are not just interested in the hot end, but a high COP hot end. Do cascading systems have low COP ? I would assume so.

BeerGrylls is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Tags
air conditioner, diy, gshp, heat pump, homemade

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Ad Management by RedTyger
Inactive Reminders By Icora Web Design