Info on panels wanted

Exeric · 02-18-14, 11:50 PM

Ryland,
Yes it's very fashionable to lump all Californian's together, and easy too. Go for it and see where it gets you. As for getting enough heat out of any solar system in the far north climates in the dead of winter - it seems to me I remember hearing Randen, someone who I very much respect, saying that in the month of December there was hardly any heat generated from his system to heat his shop. And from what I recall it was a very well engineered system that worked on most of the same principles as the system we are talking about here.

But I won't bring up the exact quote so as not to embarrass your weak ego. If you've figured out a way to store November's heat to replace all of the dearth of heat in December for Randen, and do it cheaply and without a lot of work... well then please tell us all.

Ryland · 02-19-14, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exeric

As for getting enough heat out of any solar system in the far north climates in the dead of winter - it seems to me I remember hearing Randen, someone who I very much respect, saying that in the month of December there was hardly any heat generated from his system to heat his shop. And from what I recall it was a very well engineered system that worked on most of the same principles as the system we are talking about here.

What I am saying is that it's working for many people who live in this area, so while I don't know Randen or why their system failed to perform.

Here is one project that I worked on about 10 years ago and every time I see the home owner he's still thrilled with his house and that it's heated with the sun, http://strawbalefarms.com/active.html I worked on 4 other houses in Wisconsin and 1 in central Minnesota that have near identical solar hot water systems as their main source of heat and they all work in December.

Exeric · 02-19-14, 02:59 PM

Ryland, I'm glad this is moving away from such a p***ing match!. I have never disputed that you can design any solar heat system to match the average BTU requirements for a specific location and size of structure. But the point of this whole thing is the word AVERAGE. We don't live in an average world. When there is high moisture content in the air there is very little heat getting through, sometimes almost none. That is because that moisture, whether it is fog, rain, sleet, or snow, will absorb most of the infrared rays from the sun. That shouldn't be a revelation. There's anecdotal evidence all the time from members on this thread that this happens.

Sometimes there can be long stretches of stormy or foggy weather. The longer the stretch of this weather the more you are screwed with a solar thermal system. You will get almost no heat out of that system for that long stretch. Even if you then get a similarly long stretch of clear blue skies and completely make up for that BTU shortfall you are still screwed. To make things simpler I'll convert a long stretch of BTU representations into unit values of 0 or 1. Not very accurate but you will get the idea. Plus I'm make the similar assumption that you can't store the heat. Again, not that accurate but for month long stretch of similar weather it approximates the truth. Even a thermos bottle will only retain heat or cold for a day or two.

In your location you average 1 BTU each month in December, January, and February. December was a stormy month. In December let's say your BTUs coming in was 0. January was a great month and you got 2 BTUs. February you got the average, 1 BTU. Because a thermal system does not really story heat very well December was a total loss. January had an abundance of BTUs, (2!) but you wasted 1 BTU because it was more than you needed. February came right in on the design spec for the system for the month. Your system worked to specification using the AVERAGE BTUs required for your location. You got 3 BTUs out of your solar thermal system, and averaged 1 BTU for each month. What is there to complain about? Well you might complain that you froze your butt off in December. I would.

On the other hand in a net metered solar PV system, which for simplification I'll assume the same equivalent BTUs in watts, you didn't freeze in December. That's because you designed the size of the array for the whole year's electrical requirements. The grid stored your excess energy when you generated it and returned it when you needed it. It functioned just like a huge perfect battery.

Exeric · 02-24-14, 01:24 PM

Masterplan,
I just noted that you are doing a major project using solar heat on another thread that this thread should be part of. It's too late now to join the two threads without further confusing readers even more. If I had known you were already committed to this plan I wouldn't have said anything. Not that I don't have preferences, just that Monday Morning quarterbacking isn't my thing and I don't think it should be anyone's. Randen knows I was supportive of his project and I think Ryland got the wrong idea about me because I didn't know you were already committed.

02-19-14, 02:59 PM	#3
Exeric Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: California Posts: 274 Thanks: 19 Thanked 37 Times in 28 Posts	Ryland, I'm glad this is moving away from such a p**ing match!. I have never disputed that you can design any solar heat system to match the average BTU requirements for a specific location and size of structure. But the point of this whole thing is the word AVERAGE. We don't live in an average world. When there is high moisture content in the air there is very little heat getting through, sometimes almost none. That is because that moisture, whether it is fog, rain, sleet, or snow, will absorb most of the infrared rays from the sun. That shouldn't be a revelation. There's anecdotal evidence all the time from members on this thread that this happens. Sometimes there can be long stretches of stormy or foggy weather. The longer the stretch of this weather the more you are screwed with a solar thermal system. You will get almost no heat out of that system for that long stretch. Even if you then get a similarly long stretch of clear blue skies and completely make up for that BTU shortfall you are still screwed. To make things simpler I'll convert a long stretch of BTU representations into unit values of 0 or 1. Not very accurate but you will get the idea. Plus I'm make the similar assumption that you can't store the heat. Again, not that accurate but for month long stretch of similar weather it approximates the truth. Even a thermos bottle will only retain heat or cold for a day or two. In your location you average 1 BTU each month in December, January, and February. December was a stormy month. In December let's say your BTUs coming in was 0. January was a great month and you got 2 BTUs. February you got the average, 1 BTU. Because a thermal system does not really story heat very well December was a total loss. January had an abundance of BTUs, (2!) but you wasted 1 BTU because it was more than you needed. February came right in on the design spec for the system for the month. Your system worked to specification using the AVERAGE BTUs required for your location. You got 3 BTUs out of your solar thermal system, and averaged 1 BTU for each month. What is there to complain about? Well you might complain that you froze your butt off in December. I would. On the other hand in a net metered solar PV system, which for simplification I'll assume the same equivalent BTUs in watts, you didn't freeze in December. That's because you designed the size of the array for the whole year's electrical requirements. The grid stored your excess energy when you generated it and returned it when you needed it. It functioned just like a huge perfect battery. Last edited by Exeric; 02-19-14 at 08:35 PM..*

02-18-14, 11:50 PM	#1
Exeric Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: California Posts: 274 Thanks: 19 Thanked 37 Times in 28 Posts	Ryland, Yes it's very fashionable to lump all Californian's together, and easy too. Go for it and see where it gets you. As for getting enough heat out of any solar system in the far north climates in the dead of winter - it seems to me I remember hearing Randen, someone who I very much respect, saying that in the month of December there was hardly any heat generated from his system to heat his shop. And from what I recall it was a very well engineered system that worked on most of the same principles as the system we are talking about here. But I won't bring up the exact quote so as not to embarrass your weak ego. If you've figured out a way to store November's heat to replace all of the dearth of heat in December for Randen, and do it cheaply and without a lot of work... well then please tell us all.

02-24-14, 01:24 PM	#4
Exeric Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: California Posts: 274 Thanks: 19 Thanked 37 Times in 28 Posts	Masterplan, I just noted that you are doing a major project using solar heat on another thread that this thread should be part of. It's too late now to join the two threads without further confusing readers even more. If I had known you were already committed to this plan I wouldn't have said anything. Not that I don't have preferences, just that Monday Morning quarterbacking isn't my thing and I don't think it should be anyone's. Randen knows I was supportive of his project and I think Ryland got the wrong idea about me because I didn't know you were already committed.