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Old 03-02-16, 11:44 PM   #1871
AC_Hacker
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Originally Posted by Mobile Master Tech View Post
I've been doing research to understand the potential risk of flammable refrigerants for our heat pumps, such as R290 we've discussed here. The automotive industry is phasing in R1234yf which is mildly flammable. Daimler originally said they wouldn't use it in their cars because they could repeat fires and a corrosive acid cloud during their testing. Other manufacturers were satisfied with their tests, the SAE and others decided the risk was so small even airbags posed much more risk, and Daimler has since backed down....
There is already a thread on EcoRenovator called something like "Propane as a Refrigerant". It was intended to discourage people from using Propane. It contains much of the information you have just posted.

-AC

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Old 03-03-16, 12:33 AM   #1872
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I'm posting here because this thread is more relevant concerning getting higher temps...efficiency as 104F output from a 41F source.

You do understand that this particular thread is not a discussion thread, right?

This thread is here to encourage new people who are engaged in the process of building homemade heat pumps, or want to know where to start. People who could use some specific help.

This should not be a tough idea.

Sincerely,

-AC_Hacker
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Old 03-03-16, 08:50 AM   #1873
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I thought those topics (what refrigerant to put in their hacked unit and why, safety issues, understanding equipment reliability limits hackers might be bumping against without realizing it, how to get more useful heat and efficiency out of their unit, doing what others said couldn't or shouldn't be done, etc, all backed up with references and personal experience) were exactly what this thread was about!

How about I make you a deal, AC? I'll try to keep in mind where you are trying to go with your threads when I write. If I get it wrong and you don't like something I post, don't get your feathers up. Instead, quote only the parts you like; suggest a better, specific thread for the remainder if you are aware of one; ask me to go back and delete the original. I'll do it. I imagine most others here will, as well. We're mostly all cooperative good people trying to move the ball of ecological responsibility down the field.

Seems like a good way to keep the number of posts about what should and should not be here to a minimum and useful content to a maximum. Fair enough?
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Old 03-03-16, 01:24 PM   #1874
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I thought those topics (what refrigerant to put in their hacked unit and why...useful content to a maximum. Fair enough?
MMT,

Have you actually read through the 'Manifesto' thread? You have said various things about this thread that sound great, but give me the impression that you haven't actually read it.

Are you aware that there are 413 other threads in the Geothermal and Heat Pumps branch of EcoRenovator? Most of these are discussion threads and some are actually living breathing project threads. The 413 total includes the 'Manifesto' thread, which is not a discussion thread.

Have you scanned through those thread headings so that you at least know what the topics are, and what may have been already been discussed?

Much of the information you are posting is valuable, but has appeared in other threads. Other information you are posting is valuable and new, but would be better placed in a more appropriate thread that is a discussion thread.

So here is an opportunity for you to contribute to this thread in an appropriate way, that is relevant to what this thread is about:

Currently we have two projects that are open and in need of your help.

One of them is in Amman Jordan, and the other is in Northwood, Iowa.

The one that is in Amman, Jordan starts at POST_1833.

The other project in Northwood, Iowa starts at POST_1849.

Helping people like this, who are actually involved right now in projects is what the Manifesto thread is all about.

OK MMT, do your stuff...

Sincerely,

-AC_Hacker
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Old 03-03-16, 09:36 PM   #1875
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Ok, so to answer DonT's questions directly:
1. A 11KBtu compressor feeding a hydronic HX would probably not heat his barn-home during frigid weather, even at 130 degF supply water temperatures.
2. A GSHP would probably not be highly efficient running against a 175 degF water-heater-turned-boiler. It may save some electricity in the long run, but would have a relatively short lifespan.
3. The staple-up (or similar) hydronic heating loop would be much less efficient running at 130 degF than 175 degF, and would seriously reduce heating capacity of the system as a whole. MMT and BBP have discussed this at length in the DIY hydronic heating thread.

Go fish.
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Old 03-04-16, 07:55 PM   #1876
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(* Thankfully we can get pack to the purpose of this thread *)

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Ok, so to answer DonT's questions directly:
1. A 11KBtu compressor feeding a hydronic HX would probably not heat his barn-home during frigid weather, even at 130 degF supply water temperatures.
I agree with you jeff5may.

I looked up the degree days for January, and his chart looks like this:


Clearly, his big heat requirement was during Jan 16, 17, 18.

I used his numbers, and calculated his BTU/hr output for Jan 17 (worst day). It came out to 18113 BTU/hr.

And the compressor he has can deliver an ideal maximum of 11,000 BTU/hr.

His compressor would also be subject to HX losses, etc.

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2. A GSHP would probably not be highly efficient running against a 175 degF water-heater-turned-boiler. It may save some electricity in the long run, but would have a relatively short lifespan.
Efficiency is the ratio of energy out divided by energy in. So the compressor would almost certainly be more efficient. But the one he has will not able to produce the amount of heat he needs. The red line in the diagram is what his compressor could deliver. I suppose his compressor could be used to supplement his other heat sources.

But then there is that darn delta-T issue. His BTUs will be at a lower temperature as you said.

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3. The staple-up (or similar) hydronic heating loop would be much less efficient running at 130 degF than 175 degF, and would seriously reduce heating capacity of the system as a whole. MMT and BBP have discussed this at length in the DIY hydronic heating thread.
Yes, terribly inefficient. All radiant structures for heat pumps need to be way more efficient that those used for fossil fuel, if you want to gain the full benefit of GSHP.


-AC
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Old 03-05-16, 09:54 AM   #1877
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MMT,

Have you actually read through the 'Manifesto' thread? .... Helping people actually involved right now in projects is what the Manifesto thread is all about.

OK MMT, do your stuff...

Sincerely,

-AC_Hacker
Thanks for the "Thank You", Zwerius! And to others who will surely do the same.


AC, I have read it twice and have been an active participant since THIS PAGE. I'm on my the third read now because there is so much good info it is easy to forget some. It is important to reference back to important content or make quick summaries since this thread is so large, and I try not to go into detail unless something is new, like I did about keeping perspective about fire risk, even with a non-flammable refrigerant.

Yes, I scan and am aware of these, as well as numerous good threads under other topics. I have contributed to many. Contributing significantly to all or even reading them all would be a fulltime job, but I try to see if others are aware of the major threads and direct them to them if not. I try to make sure important relevant information can be found in those threads, of which yours is the runaway "bestseller." I also try to make sure new threads get some responses so the author is aware there are others actively "on the other end of the line."

It seems there IS lots of discussion here about things you need to consider when undertaking a HP project and all it's related facets, not just documenting them or offering Q&A. Please give all of us some guidance on how to tell when a thread is or is not a discussion thread and what is ok or not ok within them. I'm not the first person to be chided for putting something here you didn't want. Perhaps an edit to post #1 describing what you want ongoing posts to be like?

Do you have any comments on my proposed solution to keep this thing focused where you want, or an improved suggestion?

Jibreel and Don, I am happy to help. I don't want to clutter with answers to something someone already answered well, but please feel free to ask anything you want to know more about, if you can't find it in this thread and the others referenced.

Jibreel, I have posted costs and sources for many of the materials I have used if you search my posts. I'm not familiar with sources in your area, but there is always ebay or similar.
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Old 03-05-16, 10:04 AM   #1878
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Don, an 11kbtu R22 compressor will put out less and be less efficient at low source temps, high lift or both-Be careful running against minimum pressures or high pressure ratios. It will put out more with high temps or lower lift. Be careful running against the power or mechanical limits of the compressor. The difference can be as much as 50%, as I described HERE. You can probably find the chart describing this compressor's capabilities by searching it's model number on the nameplate. Running R290 will boost its capabilities a bit also.

If you combine numerous approaches such as annualized storage plus a buffer tank, you can size for average load, not peak load, which sounds doable based on your numbers.
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Old 03-05-16, 03:42 PM   #1879
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So, just to be clear. What you are saying is it will NOT work. The 11350btu R22 compressor will not heat a tank of water to more then about 130F.
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Old 03-05-16, 07:21 PM   #1880
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So, just to be clear. What you are saying is it will NOT work. The 11350btu R22 compressor will not heat a tank of water to more then about 130F.
No, what I am saying is that what you have set up now is not what a heat pump is good at supplying at high performance. With YOUR weather conditions, it would be nearly impossible for ME to over-insulate the building on a bang-for-the-buck basis. With (only) an 80 KWH daily heat load in January, it would be incredibly difficult for ME to justify spending more than a couple thousand dollars and/or a couple hundred man-hours on a heating system retrofit. Especially with a medium-temperature floor heating loop that would need a gut and redo. Reducing your heat losses chops your energy bill the same way as a more efficient heater, but is much more permanent. Because three blankets over you in bed beats one blanket and a dog when it's really cold, and dogs eat more than blankets do.

Yes, there are systems on the market (Japanese Altherma and Eco Cute, European Nibe, American Geyser) that can do an awesome job of heating water to above 150 degF, even with air-source outdoor units at low outdoor temperatures. Yes, you could assemble one of these beasts. I would recommend a 2 ton "pumpkin" compressor with lots of shell surface area, along with an oversized ground loop filled with vodka or 50/50 antifreeze. Even then, I would still keep your existing water heater boiler, just in case.

For what you have described, it would be very easy for me to justify a couple thousand dollars worth of sealing and insulating materials (plus effort), combined with a modest (1-ton) inverter mini-split-style ground source (or...ahem... air source) style of unit. A single zone unit could quite possibly keep the water heater from burning 3/4 of the time, and the envelope could be made 25% (or more) tighter. The combination could cut your electric bill in half.

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