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Old 01-08-15, 03:01 PM   #1
ecomodded
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Default 25% of propane related deaths caused by Carbon Monoxide

Carbon monoxide

I thought this information might save a life , I found it interesting that excessive water vapor on windows etc. while using propane is a indication of a incomplete burn which causes excessive CO concentration.


Carbon Monoxide (CO) is responsible for almost 25% of all propane related fatalities. Carbon Monoxide is the product of incomplete gas combustion often because appliances are improperly adjusted. Properly functioning propane appliances will produce what is called an "ideal burn" during combustion and present no danger of Carbon Monoxide poisoning. Carbon Monoxide poisoning can lead to severe injury and even death.

Combustion Requirements

Three ingredients required for combustion to take place include fuel, ignition and air. Without any one of these three ingredients, combustion will not occur and even still, the ratio of air to gas must be within an acceptable range for combustion to occur. For instance, a mixture made up of equal parts propane and air will not combust when ignition is introduced. With propane, combustion will occur when the gas in air mixture is between 2.2 and 9.6 and is referred to as the "limits of flammability". In other words, 2.2 parts propane and 97.8 parts air is a combustible mixture as is 9.6 parts propane and 90.4 parts air. Combustion will occur anywhere between these two gas to air ratios with the "ideal burn" being about 4 parts propane and 96 parts air (1:24). This ideal ratio is considered to be the most efficient burn of propane gas when used. Complete combustion of propane is evident by a blue burning flame.
Incomplete Propane Combustion - Carbon Monoxide

Carbon Monoxide is produced during the incomplete combustion of propane. Incomplete combustion is defined as within the limits of flammability but higher or lower than the ideal ratio of 4 parts propane 96 parts air. Incomplete propane combustion can occur in one of two ways:

Lean Burn - The ratio of propane to air is less than 4 parts propane. 2.5 parts propane to 97.5 parts air would produce a lean burn. A lean burn can be recognized when flames appear to lift away from the burner and can potentially go out.
Rich Burn - A ratio of propane to air is more than 4 parts propane. 8.5 parts propane to 91.5 parts air would produce a rich burn. Recognizing a rich burn is very simple as the flames are much larger than they are supposed to be and are largely yellow in color.

Several products of incomplete combustion that are easily visible and if noticed, action should be taken immediately. Visible signs of incomplete combustion include burner flame appearance (as listed above), soot collecting on appliance windows such as that of a space heater and excessive water vapors forming on windows and cool surfaces during appliance operation. Appliance service and adjustment is needed if any of these visible signs of incomplete combustion are noticed.

Dangerous Levels of Carbon Monoxide - The Signs

Carbon Monoxide is a deadly toxic gas undetectable by smell that can harm or kill animals, plants and people. Carbon Monoxide poisoning is not limited to propane gas. It is a product of the incomplete combustion of natural gas as well. The best defense against Carbon Monoxide poisoning is to have working CO detectors installed throughout the living space of a home. Carbon Monoxide detectors are available at many stores as well as on the internet. If any of the following signs are noticed, take action immediately as a high level of Carbon Monoxide is likely present.

Aldehydes - This toxic gas is detectable by smell and gives the sensation of a metallic taste in ones mouth after exposure and indicates Carbon Monoxide is most likely present.
Health Symptoms - Carbon Monoxide poisoning causes headaches, dizziness, nausea, shortness of breath and light-headedness. Fresh air is needed immediately followed by medical attention.
Dead Plants - Dangerous levels of Carbon Monoxide are likely if the plants in your home have all of a sudden died or are withering.

Action needs to be taken immediately if any or combination of the above are noticed.


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Old 01-13-15, 05:37 AM   #2
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Ecomodded, excellent post! Carbon monoxide (CO) is colorless, odorless and you have absolutely no perception of it when breathing it.

What CO does is that it binds to hemoglobin, the oxygen carrying blood molecule in EXACTLY the space that oxygen normally occupies. And CO binds with a strength of ~ 200 times that of oxygen. In other words, giving oxygen can't help in severe cases.

The only cure is a rapid use of a hyperbaric chamber that can impose high oxygen at several atmosphere pressure.

But if nerves in the brain have lost oxygen, they only have a short time to be supplied - or they die.

Many people complain of an odd headache with low levels of CO. Not like any headache they have ever had.

A VERY small volume of CO is lethal. In the case of a car volume, an amount of CO volume about the size of a grapefruit in that car volume would turn out to be lethal in only a few minutes (without outside air coming in).

I echo the suggestion to always have a CO monitor in your home. Even with what we think of as complete combustion (blue flame on gas cook-top), there is always CO being given off as combustion is not 100% efficient.

Sadly, if the plants are dying that you are observing from heaven as you are dead also. One very clear characteristic is that CO patients come in with rosy cheeks and "look" healthy. This is because hemoglobin turns red (from blue) when the oxygen site is occupied. In the case of CO intoxication, the hemoglobin site is not occupied by oxygen, but by CO. But the blood turns red just like if oxygen was present. A meter that normally tests for oxygen (finger oximeter) also reads normal with CO intoxication as that device just senses the color of hemoglobin.

The end cause of death with CO is always central neural hypoxia - low levels of oxygen to the brain.


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Old 01-14-15, 01:24 AM   #3
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Triggering flame roll out sensors is a common symptom of a cracked heat exchanger, the most common cause of a CO leak in a central hvac. Other causes might be unattached flue pipes or sucking in flue gases from a hot water heater.
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Old 01-14-15, 11:12 PM   #4
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Thanks all for some of the most informative postings RE: CO.

My biggest challenge (in my house, with natural gas hot water storage tank + single-stage hydronic radiant in-floor heating boiler is that since I replaced my AO Smith "skinny" 40 gal hot water tank with a more efficient GE 12yr 40gal tank (3X the tank insulation built in), the flue pipe is not able to keep hot enough when seasonal changover (during late fall when it's time to cut over to whole house heating). That's the time when I turn on the thermostat to command for the boiler to do it's job, backdraft occurs (exhaust gas not hot enough to go out of the pipe, also my house is slightly negative pressurised due to the 2003 construction code). I have 3 CO alarm in-house, with the one closest to the boiler room being an AC type with digital display, and one upstairs (closest to all the bedrooms) is battery operated.

I would watch in about 5 mins time when my CO level elevated to around 300ppm, when all the CO detector alarms started to wail.....I have to gain access into the boiler room, turn the hot water heater tank to high (to kick start the burner to "on") so as to help heat up the exhaust pipe, while cracking windows opened to help vent/exchange some fresh air into the house.

This usually fixed the problem.

Oh and BTW: I have spent some $$ calling on professionals to investigate/remedy my problem, but none of them were able to improve on the situation.

I guess my situation shall improve a bit when I find time later this spring or early summer when I install my HRV (and I'll try to get it to slightly +ve pressure, by around +2~3%.

Cheers,

Q.
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Old 01-15-15, 06:23 AM   #5
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Wow - 300 ppm of CO is really high. Many gas fired devices have a powered ventilation. This is a small fan that forces flue gasses to escape. Not hard or expensive to add on.

The other problem in tight houses is ventilation fans (kitchen, bathroom) as well as a household dryer in the conditioned space. A dryer exhausts ~500 ft3 per minute, so running one of those in a conditioned space causes a lot of negative pressure.

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Old 01-15-15, 09:59 AM   #6
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Your PPM is extremely high , I am pretty sure that it is enough to kill a person or make you deathly ill , 70 ppm is when newr CO meters are set to go off , the older ones were set at 50 ppm before the alarm sounded.

I strongly suspect the burner is not set up correctly , giving you a incomplete burn. Its the only way I can see you getting those numbers.
Also your vent needs to be rerouted or its diameter increased. You have a SERIOUS problem. I would consider replacing it with a On Demand electric hot water heater , or even a electric tank.. That will fix it !

Scary Quest you could not wake up one morning.


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I would watch in about 5 mins time when my CO level elevated to around 300ppm, when all the CO detector alarms started to wail.....I have to gain access into the boiler room, turn the hot water heater tank to high (to kick start the burner to "on") so as to help heat up the exhaust pipe, while cracking windows opened to help vent/exchange some fresh air into the house.
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Old 01-15-15, 10:05 AM   #7
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If you add a Fan add a small air intake to the room or the fan could just spin it wheels so to speak.


I copied this from a previous thread on Propane heaters

300 ppm will not kill you , thankfully Quest , but it will make you sick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redneck View Post
.

Physiological Effects of Carbon Monoxide (CO)


Parts per Million------------ Time of exposure------------Response


50 ----------------------------------------------------Threshold limit, no apparent toxic symptoms

100 ------------------------Several hours------------- No symptoms for long periods

200 -------------------------2-3 hours ----------------Possible headache

400 --------------------------1-2 hours -----------------Frontal headache and nausea

800 --------------------------45 minutes--------------- Headache, dizziness and nausea

800 ---------------------------2 hours ------------------ Collapse and possible unconsciousness

1600 --------------------------20 minutes ----------------Headache, dizziness and nausea

1600 ---------------------------2 hours -------------------Collapse, unconsciousness, possible death

3200 ---------------------------5-10 minutes ------------- Headache and dizziness

3200 ---------------------------10-15 minutes --------------Unconsciousness and possible death

6400 ----------------------------1-2 minutes ----------------Headache and dizziness

6400 ----------------------------0-15 minutes ---------------Unconsciousness and possible death

12800 --------------------------------------------------------Immediate Unconsciousness


12800 ----------------------------1-3 minutes --------------Danger of death


Carbon Monoxide - Carbon Monoxide Poisoning


>

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Old 01-15-15, 09:05 PM   #8
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Noted, ecomodded.

@ Steve: I cannot (and am reluctant) to convert this boiler exhaust (miniheat by allied engineering, a local company) into power exhaust type.

Like I said before: (a) if I can get the exhaust pipe hot enough for the updraft to maintain the pipe's inner temperature, it should be of no problem); (b) once I have my Vanmar HRV installed, I'm gonna slightly tweak it into positive pressure (just by a couple of %), this should reduce the possibility of possible backdrafting due to extreme pipe temp (exhaust not hot enough to rise up along the cold pipe).

Thanks folks.

Q.

http://alliedboilers.com/products/mini-gas-boiler/
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Old 01-15-15, 11:38 PM   #9
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You might consult the manufacturer for remedy. Something doesn't sound right. Even with a tight house your combustion make up air vent should break any negative pressure at the water heater. Was the draft connector installed on the new water heater?-I've seen these left off. Is your flue vent pipe type b double wall? If not that could help increase your draft temps.
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Old 01-16-15, 12:04 AM   #10
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As I mentioned in my posting earlier: this happened since I changed out my AO Smith "skinny" hot water tank storage heater (natural gas) to GE, which, IMHO, is more efficient (less frequent heating in order to maintain the same water temp). With less frequent heating of the hot water tank, the pipe gets "cold", and even with pilot lights idling on both units (heater and boiler), when the boiler kicks in, the pipe was simply too cold to let the exhaust gas to rise up (to the chimney).

Both my hot water tank and the boiler are not power exhaust type (not common in our area), and because all of these units were fitted under the wooden staircase crawlspace (thus the call for something apartment sized call "skinny", which, according to a lot of hot water tank installer, comes with no more than 1" of insulation typically).

I'll try to post some pics later...

Q.

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