DIY well drilling / trench digging for GSHP - Page 8

Vlad · 03-03-12, 02:11 AM

Yes, you are from Victoria. So, this info about PA can be usefully for you. Here is fire supplier :
Pipco Industrial Supplies - 4003 Graveley St, Burnaby, BC

I didn't know that there is PA in Victoria lucky you....

Vlad · 03-03-12, 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlanE

I was just looking at the trash pump again. The specs read "max. head = 85 ft" so, if that means what I think it means, then it worked well for you because you only went down to 60 ft, but for anyone who wants to exceed 85 ft this pump won't be able to lift the mud and cuttings up to the surface. That's why the pump detailed in that video had 15 hp from the 25 hp Kohler directed to the mud pump.

I'm betting on the fact that I'm going to have to go down 200+ feet because I'm also going to use this drill rig to drill for water. Then I'll use it for a series of GSHP wells.

85' head means that it will push 85 feet up. You push water down. It means your head is 0.

They needed 15 HP of power because they used junk swivel (inside it only has couple 3/4" holes VS my full straight 1/1/2"). also 1" drill pipe creates restriction.

AlanE · 03-03-12, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlad

85' head means that it will push 85 feet up. You push water down. It means your head is 0.

They needed 15 HP of power because they used junk swivel (inside it only has couple 3/4" holes VS my full straight 1/1/2"). also 1" drill pipe creates restriction.

The debris that you're cutting has to come back up the shaft though. Yes, the PE of the water at the top should carry the water back up from the bottom, but how about the rest of the cuttings?

Vlad · 03-03-12, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlanE

The debris that you're cutting has to come back up the shaft though. Yes, the PE of the water at the top should carry the water back up from the bottom, but how about the rest of the cuttings?

This is why you don't use water but special bentonite clay/water mix. I found place in Langley(I will look later) that sells this clay @ about 15-18$ a bag. You will need 4-5 bags.

I just want to clarify: you push mud down the pipe through the swivel and mud picks up cuttings and pushes them between pipe and hole's wall. This is a special clay it is like soap (very slippery) it cools, lubricates the bit and adds viscosity to water to carry cutting up.

Vlad · 03-03-12, 02:40 AM

Here is a link to drilling supplier in Langley BC. Also an info about bentonite clay.

Extra High Yield Bentonite | Westcoast Drilling Supplies

The pump that I used is GR 80 or 82 series aluminum body (their is 82 cast iron). I used 2hp electric motor and didn't know what to do with so much pressure and flow. I had to add T and valves and recirculate most of the flow back.

I only can imagine if I used 15hp with that pump. Probably I needed ta clean whole neighborhood from mud fountain

AlanE · 03-03-12, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlad

This is why you don't use water but special bentonite clay/water mix. I found place in Langley(I will look later) that sells this clay @ about 15-18$ a bag. You will need 4-5 bags.

I just want to clarify: you push mud down the pipe through the swivel and mud picks up cuttings and pushes them between pipe and hole's wall. This is a special clay it is like soap (very slippery) it cools, lubricates the bit and adds viscosity to water to carry cutting up.

My point is that there is more mass coming up than there is going down. It takes energy to bring the cuttings back up to the surface.

I think that you did OK with that trash pump because you were drilling down to 60 feet. That pump had enough energy to bring your cuttings back to the surface. Going down much further might pose a problem. That's the reason that the pump in the video was getting so much power. Yes, you did have a point about the smaller diameter of the piping creating more friction thus making the pump work harder, but that pump had the capacity to pull twice as much power as the drill head. I believe that they included enough pipe to drill down to 300' feet.

AlanE · 03-03-12, 02:59 AM

Might as well through this up for anyone who is following this discussion and in interested in percussion drilling.

Vlad · 03-03-12, 03:06 AM

I doesn't matter how deep you go (I am talking about our DIY range). Head pressure will be the same = 0. It is Push-Pull situation. You need right viscosity to carry cuttings up. Have you ever seen a fountain of mud blowing from drilling rig? You do need flow you do need pressure to overcome resistance. Cuttings are small like sand or small rock chips. They are not like stones.

I used not even 30% of available flow. And I used only2 HP electric motor 1750 RPM. With gas engine you have 5-6 HP and 3500RPM

Sorry that pump looks like 7HP. It will lift your rig into air

.

Check this link:

http://www.americawestdrillingsupply.com/Swivels.asp
They might have swivels for sale...

Vlad · 03-13-12, 04:11 AM

AlanE sorry I missed the point. Are you going to use open loop or closed loop system. This is very critical?

Vlad · 03-13-12, 06:23 PM

For grouting I used diaphragm trash pump Homelite 3". It has 4.5 HP gas engine(got used one for 200$). This is a great pump but it needs speed because at low rpm gas engines have no torque. Because grout is not liquid enough pump could never rev up.

I did try to add more water but it didn't help.

I used 1 1/2 clear vinyl suction hose:
http://www.princessauto.com/pal/prod....-Suction-Hose

It was very clear there was not enough pressure to push grout through the hose.

Finally I got an idea what if I used air operated diaphragm pump?. I started looking for one on eBay. One day I found one on Craigslist near Olympia in US (350 km away from my house).

It is Wilden m5 air operated dual diaphragm pump. New ones like this cost thousands of $$, but I am not rich, so I spent 150$ plus 700km in my van.

This pump requires a lot of air I mean A LOT. My air compressor is a commercial monster with real 5HP electric motor(not inflated rating but real 5HP) can't keep up. But I don't need full pumping capacity, what I need is pressure.

Long story short it looks like I finally can pump slurry-like cement bentonite clay mix. I didn't add cement because the whole point was to make sure I can pump that viscosity. Testing was fun. At one point hose came loose and blew sand/clay mix at over 100 psi pressure all over me and my house. It was like sandblaster blow. Cleaning whole side of house wasn't fun at all.

Even with pressure of about 120 psi I can only push grout through 50 feet of 1 1/2 hose. I tried 70 feet- NO GO. I had to add more water which is not too good for grout.

In my case I have to find the way to pump grout. My holes are just 4" wide minus 2 pipes. Also the hole is full of drilling mud (easy to replace with water or even empty it) there is no way to fill it by gravity.

03-03-12, 02:40 AM	#75
Vlad Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Windsor ON Canada Posts: 229 Thanks: 4 Thanked 30 Times in 22 Posts	Here is a link to drilling supplier in Langley BC. Also an info about bentonite clay. Extra High Yield Bentonite \| Westcoast Drilling Supplies The pump that I used is GR 80 or 82 series aluminum body (their is 82 cast iron). I used 2hp electric motor and didn't know what to do with so much pressure and flow. I had to add T and valves and recirculate most of the flow back. I only can imagine if I used 15hp with that pump. Probably I needed ta clean whole neighborhood from mud fountain Last edited by Vlad; 03-03-12 at 02:48 AM..

03-03-12, 03:06 AM	#78
Vlad Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Windsor ON Canada Posts: 229 Thanks: 4 Thanked 30 Times in 22 Posts	I doesn't matter how deep you go (I am talking about our DIY range). Head pressure will be the same = 0. It is Push-Pull situation. You need right viscosity to carry cuttings up. Have you ever seen a fountain of mud blowing from drilling rig? You do need flow you do need pressure to overcome resistance. Cuttings are small like sand or small rock chips. They are not like stones. I used not even 30% of available flow. And I used only2 HP electric motor 1750 RPM. With gas engine you have 5-6 HP and 3500RPM Sorry that pump looks like 7HP. It will lift your rig into air . Check this link: http://www.americawestdrillingsupply.com/Swivels.asp They might have swivels for sale... Last edited by Vlad; 03-03-12 at 04:32 AM..

03-13-12, 06:23 PM	#80
Vlad Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Windsor ON Canada Posts: 229 Thanks: 4 Thanked 30 Times in 22 Posts	Grouting challenge.... For grouting I used diaphragm trash pump Homelite 3". It has 4.5 HP gas engine(got used one for 200$). This is a great pump but it needs speed because at low rpm gas engines have no torque. Because grout is not liquid enough pump could never rev up. I did try to add more water but it didn't help. I used 1 1/2 clear vinyl suction hose: http://www.princessauto.com/pal/prod....-Suction-Hose It was very clear there was not enough pressure to push grout through the hose. Finally I got an idea what if I used air operated diaphragm pump?. I started looking for one on eBay. One day I found one on Craigslist near Olympia in US (350 km away from my house). It is Wilden m5 air operated dual diaphragm pump. New ones like this cost thousands of $$, but I am not rich, so I spent 150$ plus 700km in my van. This pump requires a lot of air I mean A LOT. My air compressor is a commercial monster with real 5HP electric motor(not inflated rating but real 5HP) can't keep up. But I don't need full pumping capacity, what I need is pressure. Long story short it looks like I finally can pump slurry-like cement bentonite clay mix. I didn't add cement because the whole point was to make sure I can pump that viscosity. Testing was fun. At one point hose came loose and blew sand/clay mix at over 100 psi pressure all over me and my house. It was like sandblaster blow. Cleaning whole side of house wasn't fun at all. Even with pressure of about 120 psi I can only push grout through 50 feet of 1 1/2 hose. I tried 70 feet- NO GO. I had to add more water which is not too good for grout. In my case I have to find the way to pump grout. My holes are just 4" wide minus 2 pipes. Also the hole is full of drilling mud (easy to replace with water or even empty it) there is no way to fill it by gravity.

03-03-12, 02:11 AM	#71
Vlad Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Windsor ON Canada Posts: 229 Thanks: 4 Thanked 30 Times in 22 Posts	Yes, you are from Victoria. So, this info about PA can be usefully for you. Here is fire supplier : Pipco Industrial Supplies - 4003 Graveley St, Burnaby, BC I didn't know that there is PA in Victoria lucky you....

03-03-12, 02:59 AM	#77
AlanE Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Canada Posts: 91 Thanks: 6 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Might as well through this up for anyone who is following this discussion and in interested in percussion drilling.

03-13-12, 04:11 AM	#79
Vlad Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Windsor ON Canada Posts: 229 Thanks: 4 Thanked 30 Times in 22 Posts	AlanE sorry I missed the point. Are you going to use open loop or closed loop system. This is very critical?