Controlling a DC inverter machine - Page 5

S-F · 05-24-12, 05:19 PM

Are you the same cadillackid who has posted on the homeseer board about controlling his minisplit?! I wish I knew anything about electronics! I'm about to install 2 in my house and I can't tie them in with my home automation, which sucks. With H/A you can do clever things like have the AC shut off if the door is open for a certain period of time.

Please, PLEASE, give as much information as you possibly can to help those in need as the minisplit industry has left us high and dry as far as an interface with a conventional thermostat is concerned.

cadillackid · 05-24-12, 08:53 PM

controlling with a conventional thermostat is tough for a couple of reasons.. however getting it into your Homeseer system is certainly possible..

if you have a minisplit that comes with or has wired control capability there is a chance we can hack its protocol, build a board and talk to it...

otherwise the best bet is to talk to it by Infrared remote.. this is only 1 way, however the commands going to it are discrete and not toggles so you can learn the remote..

an Ocelot or other Cheapie IR device wont likely do it.. i was successful in talking to mine using a Global Cache GC-100 .. it can take the super Long commands the A/C units require..

each command sends all the desired parameters, so you can store a command in the GC-100 and using the Global cache plugin, trigger a Homeseer event that sends the IR commands to the units...

here is why controlling with a regular thermostat (like a Zwave or such) is not a good idea...

1] Minisplits get a lot of their efficiency by running at less than capacity so as the room temps narrow in on the setpoint the unit adjusts accordingly.. a board I would build to a regular T-stat would send IR commands to the unit that shgut ot off and on based on YOUR (not the unit;s ) temperature which can vary greatly...

2] Minisplits depending on the brand take a while to fire up or shutdown.. again they are designed to run longer cycles.. in winter shutting them on and off will often mess up the defrost cycles and can end up in frozen outdoor coils...

the big issue is that every unit is different.. and as demonstrated by this thread the codes sent across the comms lines are VERY different between brands...

mitsubishi, daikin, and Fujitsu all have the capability for purchasable PC interfaces.. (at a rather large cost!)... none of the others do that I know of..

anything built by Chigo has a 3 pin connector on its Motherboard that is used to communicate with a wired wall-mountable proprietary controller.. I was lucky enough to get a Box of those wall controllers.. the board I designed replaces that wall control so I can control the units..

I believe Sanyo also has a port on its indoor board for a controller on its inverters...

indoor to outdoor unit comms, you are not likely to be able to do any type of normal control with, as the outdoor unit doesnt have the capability to alter the indoor settings.. I do know for a fact you can cause your unit to go into a Tizzy by feeding it bogus information down the indoor - outdoor comms link...

-Christopher

S-F · 05-25-12, 04:36 AM

Unfortunately I don't use Homeseer. I got a MCV Vera in ignorance when I first got into HA. Was stupid since I already have a server running all the time.

Do you think an SQBlaster would be able to learn and send the commands? If not there is a GC100 plugin for the Vera.

grayhawk · 08-24-12, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cadillackid

This is some fun stuff!! one of the members here found me on a Prius forum.. 3 years ago i did a lot of work on this with CHIGO branded minisplits to use in my Home automation system...

I can surely share any information you guys are interested in.!

-Christopher

Yes, I'm interested in what you have to share. I also am more interested in leaving the indoor-outdoor control alone and simply interfacing to the indoor control as a 'wired' digital control.

Please share, if you want direct it is rwc AT cherryfarm DOT com

Thanks

AC_Hacker · 08-25-12, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grayhawk

Yes, I'm interested in what you have to share. I also am more interested in leaving the indoor-outdoor control alone and simply interfacing to the indoor control as a 'wired' digital control.

Please share, if you want direct it is rwc AT cherryfarm DOT com

Thanks

We're all interested! Please share this information with everyone.

An email only benefits one person, but a forum post benefits many thousands of people.

-AC

grayhawk · 08-26-12, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AC_Hacker

We're all interested! Please share this information with everyone.

An email only benefits one person, but a forum post benefits many thousands of people.

-AC

Sorry, I only listed my email in desparation as I haven't been able to get a response in any form in any other way.

In my case, I have a YMGI DC Inverter split system in a remote building I would like to monitor and control. The natural way to do this is across the internet with a web style interface. So that is my goal. I trust whoever designed the system to handle the indoor-outdoor communications & do not want to muck with that. But the fact that an option for a wall mounted digital control is listed in the literature implies to me, that a different interface (other than the IR remote) is possible. Repeated requests to YMGI have been ignorred. As near as I can tell, there are no live persons at YMGI.

The compressor for this system is a Sanyo compressor. That and several other 'features' lead me to believe that is the same design as many other systems being sold today. I feel confident that if I remove the plastic case, I will find 3 terminals at the upper back of the control board for connecting a 'wired' control. In addition, I could hook up to that interface and spend some time reverse engineering the interface and the commands. But why do that, if it has already been done AND an offer to share the information has been made.

However, given no response on several forums, and no support from YMGI, I may have to go ahead and do that. In which case I will share the results.

GH

Xringer · 08-26-12, 11:14 AM

I've looked at a wired remote for my Sanyos.. (KHS2472 indoor units).
http://shop.panasonic.com/hvac/docs/...S_7TWSUA-1.pdf

Sanyo STK-RCS-7TWSU Wired Remote Control Unit

With harness Sanyo STK-KCW1 PCB Wire Kit

$137 + tax&ship for both items.

I was thinking that it would be a good way to hack the controls.
It does seem like the hardwired box just mimics the IR remote.

The project seems overly complicated. Too much for me anyways.

~~~

My last idea for hacking into the comm chain is much simpler.
Just trick the IR remote, by providing a fake temperature,
rather than letting it read the real room temp with it's thermistor.

It could be done without hacking the remote using a peltier device.
Or, you could learn the volts/temperature (thermistor) range and use a DAC to drive the remote's PCB directly.

Here's a pretty nice web connection.
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/applia...ontroller.html
Which has 8 temp sensor inputs, digital I/0 that would allow for connecting a simple DAC, for hard connection.

The nice thing about tricking the remote using a peltier unit, is the remote
isn't connected to anything and can be used normally when needed.
Plus, it uses two AA cells. It allows the system to recover from grid-fail,
since it always sends a command IR stream every 5 minutes.

grayhawk · 08-26-12, 11:49 AM

Xringer & AC Hacker, thank you so much for your good responses. It seems like I've finally found the right forum and as a plus, it is one that matches my interests in other areas as well (geothermal, solar, etc.).

I also thought just getting one of the wired remotes would be a good start. I found a place that advertized the remote specific to YMGI, they claimed to have several hundred in stock. I ordered one; only to have the order placed and then immediately cancelled by them. I emailed asking why? One reply saying no stock, no expecting any. Additional email requesting more details resulted in no further answers. Then I sent about 20 emails to YMGI Group requesting details on the optional wall remote, with no answer. So lot of promises but no real substance.

A project like I described would not be hard for me as I have lots of background in this area. But with number of projects exceeding time available, why re-invent something already done.

Thanks again for the links & info you sent. I'll look it over carefully.

bc

grayhawk · 08-26-12, 12:58 PM

I looked the Sanyo material from the links over. Had actually looked some of this over before by browsing the Sanyo Service directories.

So, without knowing the timeframe of the designs that this wired remote is used for, here are my guesses.

- Sanyo designed a line of air souce mini split systems with only the provision of an IR remote control (no wired remote). The indoor units are either wall mount or ceiling mount, but otherwise the same. In the design a 10 conductor cable is user to connect from the inside unit controller to a remote indicator/IR receiver board. This cable carries the received IR commands to the inside controller.

- Sanyo receives feedback that customer also want a wired remote, wall mount or otherwise. There are some setups where a wall mounted remote makes good sense.

- Since the inside controller board had no provision for a wired remote, they chose to add that by patching into the 10 conductor cable and simply mimic the IR receiver's output there. This results in the new 10 pin cable with small dongle they call "noise filter", giving a connection for a wired remote in addtion to?/in place of? the IR remote. This connection also supplies power for the wired remote.

I would hope in the most recent designs that the connection point has been designed into the inside controller board.

GH

Xringer · 08-26-12, 03:43 PM

Your Sanyo history seems right to me. They just made an add-on T-stat for the few customers who wanted them.
I wonder how those systems would recover after a grid failure? Maybe newer system have NVRAM built into the controllers.?.
When they reboot, they recall their last mode?

That small dongle they call "noise filter" might actually be a ferrite filter,
since the long wire run to the thermostat might radiate RFI, without some kind of suppression.

A lot of vendors use ferrite filters so their add-on products can pass FCC testing.

Hooking a long wire to any PCB with a processor running, is risking the chance of that wire acting as an antenna.

I have a bunch of ferrite filters on wiring in my house.
Don't want my ham radio gear setting off any alarms etc.

I used two ferrite filters on my old Solar hotwater system.
The wire going up to the roof top thermistor would pick up
HF radio transmission and the pump relays would chatter like crazy!

~~~

Anyways, I once had a great interest in monitoring the state of my units,
but they run so smoothly, (most of the time) I've been happy just monitoring their power use.
I figure if or when, one breaks down, I'll repair or replace it at some point.
Right now, my ASHP monitor project is still on the to-do list..
But way down under the fun stuff..

08-26-12, 11:14 AM	#47
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	I've looked at a wired remote for my Sanyos.. (KHS2472 indoor units). http://shop.panasonic.com/hvac/docs/...S_7TWSUA-1.pdf Sanyo STK-RCS-7TWSU Wired Remote Control Unit With harness Sanyo STK-KCW1 PCB Wire Kit $137 + tax&ship for both items. I was thinking that it would be a good way to hack the controls. It does seem like the hardwired box just mimics the IR remote. The project seems overly complicated. Too much for me anyways. ~~~ My last idea for hacking into the comm chain is much simpler. Just trick the IR remote, by providing a fake temperature, rather than letting it read the real room temp with it's thermistor. It could be done without hacking the remote using a peltier device. Or, you could learn the volts/temperature (thermistor) range and use a DAC to drive the remote's PCB directly. Here's a pretty nice web connection. http://ecorenovator.org/forum/applia...ontroller.html Which has 8 temp sensor inputs, digital I/0 that would allow for connecting a simple DAC, for hard connection. The nice thing about tricking the remote using a peltier unit, is the remote isn't connected to anything and can be used normally when needed. Plus, it uses two AA cells. It allows the system to recover from grid-fail, since it always sends a command IR stream every 5 minutes. __________________ My hobby is installing & trying to repair mini-splits EPA 608 Type 1 Technician Certification ~ 5 lbs or less..

08-26-12, 12:58 PM	#49
grayhawk Lurking Renovator Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Earth Posts: 29 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I looked the Sanyo material from the links over. Had actually looked some of this over before by browsing the Sanyo Service directories. So, without knowing the timeframe of the designs that this wired remote is used for, here are my guesses. - Sanyo designed a line of air souce mini split systems with only the provision of an IR remote control (no wired remote). The indoor units are either wall mount or ceiling mount, but otherwise the same. In the design a 10 conductor cable is user to connect from the inside unit controller to a remote indicator/IR receiver board. This cable carries the received IR commands to the inside controller. - Sanyo receives feedback that customer also want a wired remote, wall mount or otherwise. There are some setups where a wall mounted remote makes good sense. - Since the inside controller board had no provision for a wired remote, they chose to add that by patching into the 10 conductor cable and simply mimic the IR receiver's output there. This results in the new 10 pin cable with small dongle they call "noise filter", giving a connection for a wired remote in addtion to?/in place of? the IR remote. This connection also supplies power for the wired remote. I would hope in the most recent designs that the connection point has been designed into the inside controller board. GH Last edited by grayhawk; 08-26-12 at 01:01 PM..

08-26-12, 03:43 PM	#50
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	Your Sanyo history seems right to me. They just made an add-on T-stat for the few customers who wanted them. I wonder how those systems would recover after a grid failure? Maybe newer system have NVRAM built into the controllers.?. When they reboot, they recall their last mode? That small dongle they call "noise filter" might actually be a ferrite filter, since the long wire run to the thermostat might radiate RFI, without some kind of suppression. A lot of vendors use ferrite filters so their add-on products can pass FCC testing. Hooking a long wire to any PCB with a processor running, is risking the chance of that wire acting as an antenna. I have a bunch of ferrite filters on wiring in my house. Don't want my ham radio gear setting off any alarms etc. I used two ferrite filters on my old Solar hotwater system. The wire going up to the roof top thermistor would pick up HF radio transmission and the pump relays would chatter like crazy! ~~~ Anyways, I once had a great interest in monitoring the state of my units, but they run so smoothly, (most of the time) I've been happy just monitoring their power use. I figure if or when, one breaks down, I'll repair or replace it at some point. Right now, my ASHP monitor project is still on the to-do list.. But way down under the fun stuff.. __________________ My hobby is installing & trying to repair mini-splits EPA 608 Type 1 Technician Certification ~ 5 lbs or less..

05-24-12, 08:53 PM	#42
cadillackid Lurking Renovator Join Date: May 2012 Location: Columbus ohio Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	controlling with a conventional thermostat is tough for a couple of reasons.. however getting it into your Homeseer system is certainly possible.. if you have a minisplit that comes with or has wired control capability there is a chance we can hack its protocol, build a board and talk to it... otherwise the best bet is to talk to it by Infrared remote.. this is only 1 way, however the commands going to it are discrete and not toggles so you can learn the remote.. an Ocelot or other Cheapie IR device wont likely do it.. i was successful in talking to mine using a Global Cache GC-100 .. it can take the super Long commands the A/C units require.. each command sends all the desired parameters, so you can store a command in the GC-100 and using the Global cache plugin, trigger a Homeseer event that sends the IR commands to the units... here is why controlling with a regular thermostat (like a Zwave or such) is not a good idea... 1] Minisplits get a lot of their efficiency by running at less than capacity so as the room temps narrow in on the setpoint the unit adjusts accordingly.. a board I would build to a regular T-stat would send IR commands to the unit that shgut ot off and on based on YOUR (not the unit;s ) temperature which can vary greatly... 2] Minisplits depending on the brand take a while to fire up or shutdown.. again they are designed to run longer cycles.. in winter shutting them on and off will often mess up the defrost cycles and can end up in frozen outdoor coils... the big issue is that every unit is different.. and as demonstrated by this thread the codes sent across the comms lines are VERY different between brands... mitsubishi, daikin, and Fujitsu all have the capability for purchasable PC interfaces.. (at a rather large cost!)... none of the others do that I know of.. anything built by Chigo has a 3 pin connector on its Motherboard that is used to communicate with a wired wall-mountable proprietary controller.. I was lucky enough to get a Box of those wall controllers.. the board I designed replaces that wall control so I can control the units.. I believe Sanyo also has a port on its indoor board for a controller on its inverters... indoor to outdoor unit comms, you are not likely to be able to do any type of normal control with, as the outdoor unit doesnt have the capability to alter the indoor settings.. I do know for a fact you can cause your unit to go into a Tizzy by feeding it bogus information down the indoor - outdoor comms link... -Christopher

08-26-12, 11:49 AM	#48
grayhawk Lurking Renovator Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Earth Posts: 29 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Xringer & AC Hacker, thank you so much for your good responses. It seems like I've finally found the right forum and as a plus, it is one that matches my interests in other areas as well (geothermal, solar, etc.). I also thought just getting one of the wired remotes would be a good start. I found a place that advertized the remote specific to YMGI, they claimed to have several hundred in stock. I ordered one; only to have the order placed and then immediately cancelled by them. I emailed asking why? One reply saying no stock, no expecting any. Additional email requesting more details resulted in no further answers. Then I sent about 20 emails to YMGI Group requesting details on the optional wall remote, with no answer. So lot of promises but no real substance. A project like I described would not be hard for me as I have lots of background in this area. But with number of projects exceeding time available, why re-invent something already done. Thanks again for the links & info you sent. I'll look it over carefully. bc