#2 Sanyo 24KHS72 AC/HP Install Project (Oct 2011) - Page 3

Xringer · 10-16-11, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S-F

Why is it low?

I'm pretty excited to see this all working out.

If you are talking about the low power usage, 460w is normal for these units.
I turned it on and clicked the set-point up 1 deg C above room temp.
It came on and after about 30 seconds the power started to increase.
About 10 watts every 2 or 3 seconds. After hitting a peak of 1400w,
it started stepping down.. About 10 watts every 2 or 3 seconds,
unit it got to 460w, where it sat, until the room got warmer.
Normal for these units
~~~

If you are asking about the IDU location, (close to the floor)
then you should go back to page 1 and read my first post. (The last half).

So far, it seems like mounting the IDU down low works pretty well for heating.
I like being able to aim the warm air right at the floor in the center of the room.

I also really like this location, because I can hardly hear it running.
When it's using under 500w, it's so quite, I can hear the TV without any problem.
The stupid refrigerator in the kitchen makes more noise than the Sanyos.
(You can just see the fridge, behind the hinge of the French door above).

S-F · 10-16-11, 09:28 PM

Well... no. I meant the 1 pound of gas.

But thanks for the break down of the power usage any how!

Xringer · 10-16-11, 10:11 PM

I just went back and re-read my own post! Then realized what you mean! (Hey, I'm old)!

Yeah, they come with 4.3 pounds, and we only added 3.3 pounds after the repair.
The manual says you have to remove some, if you run a short line-set. *
At the time, I was planing to make a short Test loop to simulate a line-set.
But due to mislabeled tubing, I ended up with a really short 1/4" test loop.
So, I decided we should hold back on filling it all the way up..

Only later, did I decide to buy a brand new IDU and a 15' line set.

*Note:
This model is loaded for 33 feet of line set. For each foot you add to the length,
you have to add 0.27 oz of R410A.
Likewise, if you go under 33 feet (I assume).
33-15=18 x .27 is only about 5 oz.. So, we need to carefully add 11 oz..?.

So, we have decided to try running it with 3.3 pounds
for a while to see how it does, my HVAC guy thinks it's safe..
(Not really a mini-split guy). I'm not sure, since I'm not schooled on the effects of running low refer..

When we ran the T-run mode to filter out any impurities, etc
the IDU and the line set got down to -20 F.

To me, that seems like the system is really working pretty good.

When heating on a really cold day, the outdoor coil has to be colder than
the outdoor air, so it can pick up it's heat. And -20F is indeed pretty cold..

(At least to me)..

S-F · 10-16-11, 10:21 PM

OK, I see.
I've gotta say that since I first found you other Sanyo thread (and read it cover to cover on Christmas day last year) what concerns me the most is how to determine how much gas is needed.

Xringer · 10-16-11, 11:20 PM

Well, since reading the pressure doesn't really tell me a lot about Sanyo #1,
I'm not sure how else to tell what weight charge is needed, except by testing.

If #2 does not do cooling and heating as well as #1 does, we can try adding more R410A.

It might not be easy find the sweet spot.
When testing the repair, I used a short 1/4" test loop with something
around 20-22 oz (or about 1.3 pounds) of R410A, and it worked pretty well.

Later, when another 2 full pounds was added (measured), the system pressures and function seemed the same.
So, it might be hard to say if there is enough refrigerant in there,
without seeing how well it preforms on really cold days.. Or hot days in summer..

It's an easy thing to add a little R410A to a system, but I'd have to get
someone over here with a recovery machine to remove R410A from the unit.
Something that I would like to avoid if at all possible.

Xringer · 10-16-11, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S-F

OK, I see.
I've gotta say that since I first found you other Sanyo thread (and read it cover to cover on Christmas day last year) what concerns me the most is how to determine how much gas is needed.

One other thing that I would like to point out..
If it wasn't for the crazy power hogging when large temperature changes are called for, these things would be prefect..

I have yet to see the repaired system with it's new IDU go nuts and become a power hog.
If it does, my DIY power limiter will reset it at 10A (2.4kw).
Which I expect to see after defrost cycles this winter..

I'm not sure, but I think the power problem is a bug in the control program.
Not with the plumbing.

S-F · 10-16-11, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer

I'm not sure, but I think the power problem is a bug in the control program.
Not with the plumbing.

I eagerly wait to see.

There has to be some concise formula to follow for the charge. Where is it? I can't help but suspect that the power issues you have seen are due to an incorrect charge since everything else you have done on the other unit seems to have gone above and beyond. If you think it is indeed an FW problem have you contacted Sanyo about it? I'm sure they have more than a few of these in the field and should have more than one report of this.

Xringer · 10-17-11, 12:32 AM

Midnight is a good time to test!
I just decided to do some late night testing on the newly installed Sanyo #2.
The den was already at 21C when I turned on the Sanyo. So, nothing happened.
After waiting for a few minutes, I clicked it up to 22.
It started stepping up in power, but a little faster than I expected.
At around 1400 watts, it topped out and started back down. (As expected).

But when it hit 1000, I clicked up 23 C. Power started climbing again.
it stepped up to about 1500 watts and started back down hill.
I waited about 10 second until it got back down to 1kw, and pushed it up to 24C (75.2F).
This was happening faster than usual, I didn't know what to expect.
And, this time I was fascinated to see it pause at 2kw and start to fall back.

So, this new system seems to be better behaved than old #1..
Tomorrow, I plan to try bring it up from a cold start, up 8 degrees.
If it can handle that and stay at that 2kw peak, I'll be a happy old dude.
That would mean we could use the programmable timer function
and have it come on early in the AM, (Unattended).. Even if it was cold..

~~~~~~~~

9:40AM 8 deg call test.

We used #2 Sanyo this morning to take the chill out. It's 57F outdoor right now.
Sanyo #2 was running at idle, with the room at 21C before starting the test.

With the built-in thermostat enabled (Remote sensor not used), I set it to 28C. (82.4F).
The power stepping looked the same, and within 4 or 5 minutes, it was using over 2kw.
But, at 2370 watts, it slowed and stopped increasing. It settled down to 2350w
and stayed there for about 5 minutes, before slowly stepping back down under 2000w.
When I could see it was stabilizing again at around 700w, I ended the test.

So, is seems like Sanyo #2 is much more stable than old Sanyo #1.
Is it because #2 is lower on refrigerant? Or, does the new IDU have better firmware.?.

Once the cold weather (under 20F) sets in, I'll repeat this test.
Otherwise, I'll never know if my automatic 10A limit breaker is working or not!

Hey, wait a sec! 2370 watts is 9.7A at 244 Volts! Almost 10A!
Maybe the TED was reading a bit low.?. And Maybe the 10A DIY breaker started
Regulating the power, without causing a reset.?.
If the SSR was triggering off for only 2 or 3 AC cycles, that could have
throttled the power back at 10A, slightly lowering the DC to the motors..

The current flow sensor that I installed inside Sanyo #2 ODU might not have
the same hysteresis as the sensor used on Sanyo #1..
(It's a different brand).

Dang, too many variables for my old brain.. I guess this is what makes
the DIY hobby more interesting than sitting behind a desk all day..

Cheers,
Rich

Xringer · 10-23-11, 09:10 AM

At 7:00 AM on a Sunday morning, the last thing I wanted to hear was a TED alarm beeping.
But, it was almost time to get up anyways.

I figured it was another over-voltage alarm, but it wasn't. It was a max power alarm.

Now that I'm using the TED to monitor dual Sanyo ASHPs,
I should have re-programmed the TED's max KW alarm a little higher..Like 4KW maybe?

Last night, I set the timer on Sanyo #2, for 6:50AM so the den would be
nice and toasty when we got up. (Sanyo #1 was on overnight at 19C).
It worked very well before, when it was not so cool outdoors.
This morning, it was down to 35F (@99%H & 34F DP) outdoors.

There was a little frost on the deck, and water under the outdoor units.
I'm not sure, but the Sanyo #2 may have been in a defrost cycle when the TED alarm sounded.

Anyways, I turned down Sanyo #1 (main house) and did some testing on Sanyo #2.
Not so tolerant anymore. It will exceed 2.4kW if more than 2 deg C of change is requested.
Of course, it did some self-Re-sets* (auto-breaker is working fine),
making me understand that 35F means the Sanyo #2 has to be carefully
adjusted, one deg at a time, to avoid big power use surges.

*Note:
A couple of the auto-breaker resets were very clean full resets, with the system
re-starting again at low wattage, as if there was a grid failure.
But, a couple of other auto-breaker resets were just a system stall.
A 1/2 second hesitation in IDU fan speed before recovering.
I think this type of Stall & Recovery is probably not good for the compressor.
I'll need to think about hacking the Transistor switch, so full resets always occur.

I did a comparison between both units. When operating at the same
indoor room temp, IDU coil temp and fan speed, they both used about the same amount of power.
So, at least in this temperature range (mid 30s F) the new install seems
to working about the same as the old unit..

I plan to perform this same comparison when it gets down to the 20s F.
That might be when we might add another 1/2 pound of R410A to #2.

Cheers,
Rich

Xringer · 10-23-11, 11:10 AM

Yesterday we went to Lowes to get some stuff and I found some 2x3" PVC downspout.
Cut it to size and slit down the back with a knife. It pops right on.
Genova Plumbing, Vinyl Gutters,
This stuff might be pretty good for DIY outdoors line-set covers. (They have 3" x 4" sizes too).
Might save about 60% over the stuff I used on Sanyo #1. But, it would not look as neat.

My wife wanted the line-set going right into the wall, like Sanyo #1. But, that was impossible with this interior wall,
since there was no easy way to bring in down into the basement and then back outside.
Five 90deg bends = a longer line-set. Way too much work.

10-17-11, 12:32 AM	#28
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 115 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	Mid night power testing Midnight is a good time to test! I just decided to do some late night testing on the newly installed Sanyo #2. The den was already at 21C when I turned on the Sanyo. So, nothing happened. After waiting for a few minutes, I clicked it up to 22. It started stepping up in power, but a little faster than I expected. At around 1400 watts, it topped out and started back down. (As expected). But when it hit 1000, I clicked up 23 C. Power started climbing again. it stepped up to about 1500 watts and started back down hill. I waited about 10 second until it got back down to 1kw, and pushed it up to 24C (75.2F). This was happening faster than usual, I didn't know what to expect. And, this time I was fascinated to see it pause at 2kw and start to fall back. So, this new system seems to be better behaved than old #1.. Tomorrow, I plan to try bring it up from a cold start, up 8 degrees. If it can handle that and stay at that 2kw peak, I'll be a happy old dude. That would mean we could use the programmable timer function and have it come on early in the AM, (Unattended).. Even if it was cold.. ~~~~~~~~ 9:40AM 8 deg call test. We used #2 Sanyo this morning to take the chill out. It's 57F outdoor right now. Sanyo #2 was running at idle, with the room at 21C before starting the test. With the built-in thermostat enabled (Remote sensor not used), I set it to 28C. (82.4F). The power stepping looked the same, and within 4 or 5 minutes, it was using over 2kw. But, at 2370 watts, it slowed and stopped increasing. It settled down to 2350w and stayed there for about 5 minutes, before slowly stepping back down under 2000w. When I could see it was stabilizing again at around 700w, I ended the test. So, is seems like Sanyo #2 is much more stable than old Sanyo #1. Is it because #2 is lower on refrigerant? Or, does the new IDU have better firmware.?. Once the cold weather (under 20F) sets in, I'll repeat this test. Otherwise, I'll never know if my automatic 10A limit breaker is working or not! Hey, wait a sec! 2370 watts is 9.7A at 244 Volts! Almost 10A! Maybe the TED was reading a bit low.?. And Maybe the 10A DIY breaker started Regulating the power, without causing a reset.?. If the SSR was triggering off for only 2 or 3 AC cycles, that could have throttled the power back at 10A, slightly lowering the DC to the motors.. The current flow sensor that I installed inside Sanyo #2 ODU might not have the same hysteresis as the sensor used on Sanyo #1.. (It's a different brand). Dang, too many variables for my old brain.. I guess this is what makes the DIY hobby more interesting than sitting behind a desk all day.. Cheers, Rich Last edited by Xringer; 10-17-11 at 10:17 AM.. Reason: Morning testing

10-23-11, 09:10 AM	#29
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 115 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	7:00 AM test? At 7:00 AM on a Sunday morning, the last thing I wanted to hear was a TED alarm beeping. But, it was almost time to get up anyways. I figured it was another over-voltage alarm, but it wasn't. It was a max power alarm. Now that I'm using the TED to monitor dual Sanyo ASHPs, I should have re-programmed the TED's max KW alarm a little higher..Like 4KW maybe? Last night, I set the timer on Sanyo #2, for 6:50AM so the den would be nice and toasty when we got up. (Sanyo #1 was on overnight at 19C). It worked very well before, when it was not so cool outdoors. This morning, it was down to 35F (@99%H & 34F DP) outdoors. There was a little frost on the deck, and water under the outdoor units. I'm not sure, but the Sanyo #2 may have been in a defrost cycle when the TED alarm sounded. Anyways, I turned down Sanyo #1 (main house) and did some testing on Sanyo #2. Not so tolerant anymore. It will exceed 2.4kW if more than 2 deg C of change is requested. Of course, it did some self-Re-sets* (auto-breaker is working fine), making me understand that 35F means the Sanyo #2 has to be carefully adjusted, one deg at a time, to avoid big power use surges. Note: A couple of the auto-breaker resets were very clean full resets, with the system re-starting again at low wattage, as if there was a grid failure. But, a couple of other auto-breaker resets were just a system stall. A 1/2 second hesitation in IDU fan speed before recovering. I think this type of Stall & Recovery is probably not good for the compressor. I'll need to think about hacking the Transistor switch, so full resets always occur. I did a comparison between both units. When operating at the same indoor* room temp, IDU coil temp and fan speed, they both used about the same amount of power. So, at least in this temperature range (mid 30s F) the new install seems to working about the same as the old unit.. I plan to perform this same comparison when it gets down to the 20s F. That might be when we might add another 1/2 pound of R410A to #2. Cheers, Rich Last edited by Xringer; 10-23-11 at 09:27 AM.. Reason: note added*

10-16-11, 09:28 PM	#22
S-F You Ain't Me Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northampton MA Posts: 662 Thanks: 6 Thanked 71 Times in 58 Posts	Well... no. I meant the 1 pound of gas. But thanks for the break down of the power usage any how!

10-16-11, 10:11 PM	#23
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 115 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	I just went back and re-read my own post! Then realized what you mean! (Hey, I'm old)! Yeah, they come with 4.3 pounds, and we only added 3.3 pounds after the repair. The manual says you have to remove some, if you run a short line-set. * At the time, I was planing to make a short Test loop to simulate a line-set. But due to mislabeled tubing, I ended up with a really short 1/4" test loop. So, I decided we should hold back on filling it all the way up.. Only later, did I decide to buy a brand new IDU and a 15' line set. *Note: This model is loaded for 33 feet of line set. For each foot you add to the length, you have to add 0.27 oz of R410A. Likewise, if you go under 33 feet (I assume). 33-15=18 x .27 is only about 5 oz.. So, we need to carefully add 11 oz..?. So, we have decided to try running it with 3.3 pounds for a while to see how it does, my HVAC guy thinks it's safe.. (Not really a mini-split guy). I'm not sure, since I'm not schooled on the effects of running low refer.. When we ran the T-run mode to filter out any impurities, etc the IDU and the line set got down to -20 F. To me, that seems like the system is really working pretty good. When heating on a really cold day, the outdoor coil has to be colder than the outdoor air, so it can pick up it's heat. And -20F is indeed pretty cold.. (At least to me)..

10-16-11, 10:21 PM	#24
S-F You Ain't Me Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northampton MA Posts: 662 Thanks: 6 Thanked 71 Times in 58 Posts	OK, I see. I've gotta say that since I first found you other Sanyo thread (and read it cover to cover on Christmas day last year) what concerns me the most is how to determine how much gas is needed.

10-16-11, 11:20 PM	#25
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 115 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	Well, since reading the pressure doesn't really tell me a lot about Sanyo #1, I'm not sure how else to tell what weight charge is needed, except by testing. If #2 does not do cooling and heating as well as #1 does, we can try adding more R410A. It might not be easy find the sweet spot. When testing the repair, I used a short 1/4" test loop with something around 20-22 oz (or about 1.3 pounds) of R410A, and it worked pretty well. Later, when another 2 full pounds was added (measured), the system pressures and function seemed the same. So, it might be hard to say if there is enough refrigerant in there, without seeing how well it preforms on really cold days.. Or hot days in summer.. It's an easy thing to add a little R410A to a system, but I'd have to get someone over here with a recovery machine to remove R410A from the unit. Something that I would like to avoid if at all possible.

10-23-11, 11:10 AM	#30
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 115 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	Yesterday we went to Lowes to get some stuff and I found some 2x3" PVC downspout. Cut it to size and slit down the back with a knife. It pops right on. Genova Plumbing, Vinyl Gutters, This stuff might be pretty good for DIY outdoors line-set covers. (They have 3" x 4" sizes too). Might save about 60% over the stuff I used on Sanyo #1. But, it would not look as neat. My wife wanted the line-set going right into the wall, like Sanyo #1. But, that was impossible with this interior wall, since there was no easy way to bring in down into the basement and then back outside. Five 90deg bends = a longer line-set. Way too much work.