5 Ton GSHP Build - Page 3

randen · 02-14-13, 01:56 PM

Yes
It has some sort of connection. but first we'll get some heat then message the programms

Randy

jeff5may · 02-14-13, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikesolar

I don't think ours is that much dirtier than yours but the mixture is different. Warmer countries have more butane than we would. We all have some moisture in propane or there would be no use for condensing boilers.

The moisture exploited in condensing boilers comes from combustion. Burning propane = 3 CO2 + 4 H2O. Unless the propane is contaminated, it contains 25 ppm or less of moisture. More than this amount freezes up the valves in the pipeline and filling stations.

randen · 02-15-13, 05:57 PM

The new homemade GSHP is being tested for leaks both refrigerant and the water side for the heat exchangers. Everything looks good. The varible frequency drive is programmed for basic function. For this application this particular VFD wouldn't let me power the 3 ph compressor with supplying single phase only. In the basic circuit design of the VFD the line power 240 VAC 60Hz is applied to a bridge rectifier to 360VDC approx. on the DC buss and from there the munipulation of the Voltage, Current and Frequency. The manufacturers must want to confirm with this model they have the 3 legs for the 3 phase. VFD's can be purchased that will operate from single to 3 ph.

The VFD has so many cool features from timers to relays to many operation profiles as well as Analog input for speed control. The VFD even has a counter for time operating and # of cycles. Can hardly wait to play with it but will have wait until its installed with loopwater running through the HX's

The compressor is rated 240 V 3ph 17A running load. Thats 5 Ton 60 KBtu if .you check a single phase compressor of the same capacity you will see they almost double the amount of run current. I'm expecting it should be no more expensive to operate than the 3.5 Ton single phase that I removed.

I wish I had thought about this when we had the geothermal units installed in my home. We did talk about that option because we are nearing the capacity of our 100A service to the house. We thought about changing the service to the house to 3 phase and installing a small step down transformer. With this we could have installed 3 phase heat-pumps that operate for near half the cost. Our service line to the house is quite long so we do experience a little line loss.

In my 5.0 Ton build I included a suction line heat exchanger. This is something that Jeff and Mikesolar have been doing some work on. I had the bits and pieces it took a little extra time but now its included. I just worked with the space and pieces I had and its 1.125 dia x 7" lg. around the 7/8" suction tube. Hopefully we will gather a little more efficiency.

In the photo's you will notice a nice trick to stop tubes from vibration. Using a tie-wrap and a section of rubber tube you can lash the tubes together with the rubber tube between simple & effective. In the top veiw you will see the modified TXV with the old gate valve handle as well as the sight glass. The sight glass is really a must have. With it you can confirm the condensor is full of liquid refrigerant. It is suprising how sensitive the TXV's are. Just a 1/8 of a turn can alter the pressure alot. The cheapy foam pipe wrap is more for the prevention of condensation than heat loss. Without this the floor around the GSHP gets wet with condensation. The wrap also helps with noise reduction. The other copper tubes will have the insulation slipped on when the GSHP has finished operating for the probationary period.

Randen

Mikesolar · 02-15-13, 06:38 PM

Cool, I'm quite lazy compared to you guys...

jeff5may · 02-16-13, 07:08 PM

Randen,

Man, I just can't get over that expansion valve mod! It just looks cool... like the red button on the car the men in black drive. In an industrial setting, it would have a big yellow tag on it, or a lock or something. It would read "SUPERINTENDENT USE ONLY" or "DO NOT ADJUST BY PENALTY OF LAW". Just awesome.

I'm not so sure about the suction liquid exchanger, though. From what I can see in the pic, it doesn't look like there's much space between the two pipes. It could become restrictive at higher flow rates and cause a pressure drop. I'm no expert; the piece may work just fine. But I would keep an eye on it just in case.

Mikesolar · 02-16-13, 07:11 PM

It is about the same as the westinghouse one that I copied so it remains to be seen how it works.

randen · 02-16-13, 08:32 PM

Thanks guys

I have the unit inplace. It was alot of work, took the hole day. As I loaded the compressor up it got noisey. Damm liquidation junk. It would seem to produce a lot of heat. Jeff the suction line HX has a delta T of 4.6 Deg C. This should have some effect on efficiency. Don't worry I made sure there is ample flow.

The pressures are 60 suction and 230psi liquid. I had played with the TXV up to 375psi and it got noisier than the recips. I had.

The VFD is really nice. I'm going to phone the liquidator to see if he has another compressor. I'm worried being its really heavy that the courier dropped it bending something on the inside that you would only notice after you put some presure on the system. I get a really good head presure and it seams to draw the right current but judging from my commercial scroll units I have at home, its quite noisey. If something is interferring and it starts to make metal it will all be junk. How would you wash out all the metal to not cause an early death to the next compressor.

I did check to make sure it had oil before I brazed it together. It looks like I may be putting together number 4 GSHP I really didn't want to go into mass production.

Looks like I'll be reinstalling the little 2 Ton

Randen

Mikesolar · 02-16-13, 08:39 PM

What did you pay for the pot? What was your discharge temp and head temp at 375psi?

randen · 02-17-13, 09:10 AM

Mike I paid $150 for it. And getting it here was $200. But the work assembling and installing wow. I'm trying to gather the courage to Rebuild again. I know that deep grating noise with-in that compressor is going to result in metal shavings and sudden death.

Today is Sunday might as well be a day to switch it out with the 2 Ton

Randen

randen · 09-24-13, 08:04 PM

Fellow Eco-renovators

Look at the crate that showed up. Three nice sized new Brazed plate heat exchangers. Two will be to rebuild the 5 Ton heat-pump. I had found the tube and shell HX that I built was marginal in capacity so purchased some more appropriate BPHX. The HX were built to order with the proper brazed connections on the refrigerant side. and pipe thread on the loop side.

The third BPHX is going to be used for the house solar hot water. I'll post the activities on this install in another post

Looking forward To having the 3ph control for the compressor. And hopefully some really good COP.

Randen

02-15-13, 05:57 PM	#23
randen Uber EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Strathroy Ontario Canada Posts: 657 Thanks: 9 Thanked 191 Times in 129 Posts	5.0 Ton build The new homemade GSHP is being tested for leaks both refrigerant and the water side for the heat exchangers. Everything looks good. The varible frequency drive is programmed for basic function. For this application this particular VFD wouldn't let me power the 3 ph compressor with supplying single phase only. In the basic circuit design of the VFD the line power 240 VAC 60Hz is applied to a bridge rectifier to 360VDC approx. on the DC buss and from there the munipulation of the Voltage, Current and Frequency. The manufacturers must want to confirm with this model they have the 3 legs for the 3 phase. VFD's can be purchased that will operate from single to 3 ph. The VFD has so many cool features from timers to relays to many operation profiles as well as Analog input for speed control. The VFD even has a counter for time operating and # of cycles. Can hardly wait to play with it but will have wait until its installed with loopwater running through the HX's The compressor is rated 240 V 3ph 17A running load. Thats 5 Ton 60 KBtu if .you check a single phase compressor of the same capacity you will see they almost double the amount of run current. I'm expecting it should be no more expensive to operate than the 3.5 Ton single phase that I removed. I wish I had thought about this when we had the geothermal units installed in my home. We did talk about that option because we are nearing the capacity of our 100A service to the house. We thought about changing the service to the house to 3 phase and installing a small step down transformer. With this we could have installed 3 phase heat-pumps that operate for near half the cost. Our service line to the house is quite long so we do experience a little line loss. In my 5.0 Ton build I included a suction line heat exchanger. This is something that Jeff and Mikesolar have been doing some work on. I had the bits and pieces it took a little extra time but now its included. I just worked with the space and pieces I had and its 1.125 dia x 7" lg. around the 7/8" suction tube. Hopefully we will gather a little more efficiency. In the photo's you will notice a nice trick to stop tubes from vibration. Using a tie-wrap and a section of rubber tube you can lash the tubes together with the rubber tube between simple & effective. In the top veiw you will see the modified TXV with the old gate valve handle as well as the sight glass. The sight glass is really a must have. With it you can confirm the condensor is full of liquid refrigerant. It is suprising how sensitive the TXV's are. Just a 1/8 of a turn can alter the pressure alot. The cheapy foam pipe wrap is more for the prevention of condensation than heat loss. Without this the floor around the GSHP gets wet with condensation. The wrap also helps with noise reduction. The other copper tubes will have the insulation slipped on when the GSHP has finished operating for the probationary period. Randen Attached Thumbnails Last edited by randen; 02-15-13 at 06:02 PM..

02-16-13, 08:39 PM	#28
Mikesolar Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Toronto Posts: 958 Thanks: 40 Thanked 158 Times in 150 Posts	What did you pay for the pot? What was your discharge temp and head temp at 375psi? Last edited by Mikesolar; 02-16-13 at 08:45 PM..

09-24-13, 08:04 PM	#30
randen Uber EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Strathroy Ontario Canada Posts: 657 Thanks: 9 Thanked 191 Times in 129 Posts	Rebuilding the 5 Ton Fellow Eco-renovators Look at the crate that showed up. Three nice sized new Brazed plate heat exchangers. Two will be to rebuild the 5 Ton heat-pump. I had found the tube and shell HX that I built was marginal in capacity so purchased some more appropriate BPHX. The HX were built to order with the proper brazed connections on the refrigerant side. and pipe thread on the loop side. The third BPHX is going to be used for the house solar hot water. I'll post the activities on this install in another post Looking forward To having the 3ph control for the compressor. And hopefully some really good COP. Randen Attached Thumbnails

02-14-13, 01:56 PM	#21
randen Uber EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Strathroy Ontario Canada Posts: 657 Thanks: 9 Thanked 191 Times in 129 Posts	Yes It has some sort of connection. but first we'll get some heat then message the programms Randy

02-15-13, 06:38 PM	#24
Mikesolar Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Toronto Posts: 958 Thanks: 40 Thanked 158 Times in 150 Posts	Cool, I'm quite lazy compared to you guys...

02-16-13, 07:08 PM	#25
jeff5may Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: elizabethtown, ky, USA Posts: 2,431 Thanks: 431 Thanked 619 Times in 517 Posts	Randen, Man, I just can't get over that expansion valve mod! It just looks cool... like the red button on the car the men in black drive. In an industrial setting, it would have a big yellow tag on it, or a lock or something. It would read "SUPERINTENDENT USE ONLY" or "DO NOT ADJUST BY PENALTY OF LAW". Just awesome. I'm not so sure about the suction liquid exchanger, though. From what I can see in the pic, it doesn't look like there's much space between the two pipes. It could become restrictive at higher flow rates and cause a pressure drop. I'm no expert; the piece may work just fine. But I would keep an eye on it just in case.

02-16-13, 07:11 PM	#26
Mikesolar Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Toronto Posts: 958 Thanks: 40 Thanked 158 Times in 150 Posts	It is about the same as the westinghouse one that I copied so it remains to be seen how it works.

02-16-13, 08:32 PM	#27
randen Uber EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Strathroy Ontario Canada Posts: 657 Thanks: 9 Thanked 191 Times in 129 Posts	Thanks guys I have the unit inplace. It was alot of work, took the hole day. As I loaded the compressor up it got noisey. Damm liquidation junk. It would seem to produce a lot of heat. Jeff the suction line HX has a delta T of 4.6 Deg C. This should have some effect on efficiency. Don't worry I made sure there is ample flow. The pressures are 60 suction and 230psi liquid. I had played with the TXV up to 375psi and it got noisier than the recips. I had. The VFD is really nice. I'm going to phone the liquidator to see if he has another compressor. I'm worried being its really heavy that the courier dropped it bending something on the inside that you would only notice after you put some presure on the system. I get a really good head presure and it seams to draw the right current but judging from my commercial scroll units I have at home, its quite noisey. If something is interferring and it starts to make metal it will all be junk. How would you wash out all the metal to not cause an early death to the next compressor. I did check to make sure it had oil before I brazed it together. It looks like I may be putting together number 4 GSHP I really didn't want to go into mass production. Looks like I'll be reinstalling the little 2 Ton Randen

02-17-13, 09:10 AM	#29
randen Uber EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Strathroy Ontario Canada Posts: 657 Thanks: 9 Thanked 191 Times in 129 Posts	Mike I paid $150 for it. And getting it here was $200. But the work assembling and installing wow. I'm trying to gather the courage to Rebuild again. I know that deep grating noise with-in that compressor is going to result in metal shavings and sudden death. Today is Sunday might as well be a day to switch it out with the 2 Ton Randen