Brazing copper for HVAC? - Page 3

lstaz66 · 05-21-11, 11:08 AM

Hey Rich,
That nozzel is way to big...We are using #2 tips on our rigs for all our braizing...
What kind of system do you have ?..Is it a split system ?..Air handler in the closet or attic and condencing unit outside..Or a package unit ?...
I think what you are saying is, that You want to braize and fix the pinhole leak while having refrigerant still in system ? I posed the question to my teacher...Thats not a good idea if thats what your planning ?..Refrigerant is flamable..Im sure ya know...!and goes boom lol...Im not sure if Im understanding your plan ?..

If your adding nitrigen to the system I assume it doesnt have any refrigerant left ?..

We were discussing using nitigen when braizing..As the copper heats it creates and ash that will fall inside the pipe..So some techs actually crack the system and add a slow flow of nitrogen as they braize...
Most techs after fixing issues such as yours will.....add a dryer inline to collect moister.. then make sure system is sealed( no leaks) Vacuum down the system..Which intern removes moister..You should hold vac. for atleast 15 minutes..If pressure holds ?..Then charge the sytem to spec.
I hope that at this point your not rolling your eyes lol..I have read your post a couple times and still feel Im missing a detail or two lol...But ?..Im sure ya have a handle on things!! Lee

Xringer · 05-21-11, 06:05 PM

The R410A has all leaked out, months ago, before the outdoor unit was replaced.

Here's the system.
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothe...l-project.html

Thanks for the info on the number 2 tip. I've got no clue what that is, but I'll look it up.

I have not purchased a rig yet. After I get some filler metal,
I'll check out my old torch with MAPP gas to see what's possible.
Then, I'll look into getting a portable torch rig.

I've been talking to a buddy who told me not to buy tanks,
since I might be able to get them locally for less money (no shipping).

And he tells me the local Gas supply guys don't re-fill the tanks,
they swap them for loaner tanks, when you come in for a refill.

If you bring in your own tanks(to trade for full ones),
you have to present a bill-of-sale, because they don't want
to be charged with receiving stolen property.
(A lot of thefts in this area, it's near Boston)..

lstaz66 · 05-22-11, 10:19 AM

OK...So your going to vacumm the system when fix is complete.Thats a pretty neat system..I havent seen that before.
Yep..When ya take new tanks to get filled they swap them..If your not going to buy a complete rig..( Tanks and all) Check out Northerntool.com.They have setups for about $150.00. Again..speaking with my teach..He frowned upon buying rig and tanks seperate...I guess tanks can get pretty expensive..and when all said and done..Your paying about the same ?..Ya might be able to find tanks on ebay etc. But dunno about the regulators..I think thats where all the money is ?

Xringer · 05-22-11, 11:06 PM

At work, I have an American Beauty soldering rig.. It's a auto-transformer connected to the pinchers.

I use them to solder SMA connectors on .141" hardline coax cables.
The cables are good up to about 25 gHz..
I grip the base of the connector (sliver plated alloy) with the pincher probes.
When I step on the foot petal, the current turns the connector red hot
within a few seconds. A ring of solder, wrapped around the cable melts
and flows into the connector body, bonding it to the cable's shield.

It's the little brother of this one..
YouTube - ‪Resistance brazing 3/8 and 1/2" copper tubing, using American Beauty resistance soldering equipment.‬&rlm;

Xringer · 05-22-11, 11:26 PM

I've got 8.8 oz of filler metal coming at the end of this week.
I hope it works ok on AC plumbing. I plan to try it with MAPP gas.
May not even melt.. It's an experiment.

Check out the sellers note on the auction page..

PLEASE READ CAREFULLY: UP FOR AUCTION IS 4.4 OUNCES (4 RODS 36 INCHES LONG) OF SILVER BRAZING ROD. THESE RODS ARE FROM THE 70'S AND ARE NOT STAMPED. I'VE HAD THEM SINCE THEN AND USED THEM MANY TIMES FOR SWEATING COPPER, ETC., FLOWS VERY NICELY. ON THE TATTERED BOX I WROTE MANY YEARS AGO WITH PEN: 15 ALLOY EH 144 1/8 X .05 X 36 IN. SINCE THEY'RE NOT STAMPED I AM LISTING THEM AT 5% SILVER AND NOT 15% CONTENT TO COVER MY BUTT IN THE EVENT OF NIT PICKING (NO OFFENSE INTENDED). IF YOUR JOB IS CRITICAL FOR 5% PLEASE DO NOT BID ON THESE RODS. THEY ARE 36 INCHES LONG. FOR SHIPPING PURPOSES I WILL BEND THEM TO FIT INTO A SMALLER BOX. YOU CAN ALWAYS BEND THEM BACK OR CUT THEM WHEN YOU GET THEM. FREE SHIPPING IN LOWER USA. I'M LISTING THESE 4 RODS AT A TIME BUT IF YOU WANT MORE JUST BID ON THE REST, FREE SHIPPING, MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. THESE RODS STILL HAVE SOME LUSTER BUT ARE NOT BRIGHT AND SHINY. KEY WORDS: SILVER SOLDER BRAZE BRAZING WELDING SWEATING

lstaz66 · 05-24-11, 07:51 AM

If the tank is rightside up...Should be vapor right ?..Upside down for liquid ?..Just a thought !

Xringer · 05-24-11, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lstaz66

If the tank is rightside up...Should be vapor right ?..Upside down for liquid ?..Just a thought !

I learned about that a few years ago. I never knew that some CO2 tanks had
siphon tubes in them.

So, when I turned this old CO2 upside-down, I couldn't get anything but gas..
Took a while to figure out..

Shown right-side up..

In 1963 (when I was 17), I worked in a fire dept shop, refilling CO2 tanks.
No one ever told me about the tube. We only had one tank explode,
and I was too dazed afterwards to be peeking inside the split tank..

~~~
The new guy I was training didn't listen to me (or read the check-list),
when I told him to "Unlock the scale arm".
I turned on the big supply tank and the pump. I couldn't understand why the
scale arm wasn't moving.
When I put my hand on the tank and it was still showing under-weight,
I knew what happened and shut everything off.

Just as I started thinking about the wisdom of using two burst discs in the
compressor head, (they kept popping with only one installed),
the tank split open and since it was about 97degs in the shop,
the liquid CO2 expanded rapidly like an explosion of pressure.
It blew the outside door off and most of the windows went into the street.
Scared a few people in the fire station too..

vmike · 05-24-11, 08:43 AM

I run my co2 or nitrogen or argon, whichever I'm using as a purge gas through a refrigerant dryer between the regulator and the pipe being brazed. I have a valve on the work side of the filter to close the hose off when not in use. Periodically I stick the dryer in a vacuum bell jar and dry it out. Been doing this since the 70s without a problem.

mike

Xringer · 05-24-11, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vmike

I run my co2 or nitrogen or argon, whichever I'm using as a purge gas through a refrigerant dryer between the regulator and the pipe being brazed. I have a valve on the work side of the filter to close the hose off when not in use. Periodically I stick the dryer in a vacuum bell jar and dry it out. Been doing this since the 70s without a problem.

mike

Thanks, it's good to hear from yet another CO2 user.
I'm looking at a bi-directional filter dryer on Ebay.

EMERSON BI-DIRECTIONAL HEAT PUMP FILTER DRIER BFK-053S - eBay (item 230504732351 end time Jun-23-11 07:55:12 PDT)

And I'm wondering if this is the style/type dryer you're using?

Also, how do these things work? What's inside them?

Thanks,
Rich

lstaz66 · 05-24-11, 11:39 AM

Guess I was backwards..Good to remember lol..Thanx !

05-24-11, 08:43 AM	#8
vmike Lurking Renovator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Stillwater, OK Posts: 26 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	I run my co2 or nitrogen or argon, whichever I'm using as a purge gas through a refrigerant dryer between the regulator and the pipe being brazed. I have a valve on the work side of the filter to close the hose off when not in use. Periodically I stick the dryer in a vacuum bell jar and dry it out. Been doing this since the 70s without a problem. mike __________________ I tried to contain myself, but I escaped.

05-21-11, 11:08 AM	#1
lstaz66 Lurking Renovator Join Date: May 2011 Location: Tampa,Fla Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hey Rich, That nozzel is way to big...We are using #2 tips on our rigs for all our braizing... What kind of system do you have ?..Is it a split system ?..Air handler in the closet or attic and condencing unit outside..Or a package unit ?... I think what you are saying is, that You want to braize and fix the pinhole leak while having refrigerant still in system ? I posed the question to my teacher...Thats not a good idea if thats what your planning ?..Refrigerant is flamable..Im sure ya know...!and goes boom lol...Im not sure if Im understanding your plan ?.. If your adding nitrigen to the system I assume it doesnt have any refrigerant left ?.. We were discussing using nitigen when braizing..As the copper heats it creates and ash that will fall inside the pipe..So some techs actually crack the system and add a slow flow of nitrogen as they braize... Most techs after fixing issues such as yours will.....add a dryer inline to collect moister.. then make sure system is sealed( no leaks) Vacuum down the system..Which intern removes moister..You should hold vac. for atleast 15 minutes..If pressure holds ?..Then charge the sytem to spec. I hope that at this point your not rolling your eyes lol..I have read your post a couple times and still feel Im missing a detail or two lol...But ?..Im sure ya have a handle on things!! Lee

05-21-11, 06:05 PM	#2
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	The R410A has all leaked out, months ago, before the outdoor unit was replaced. Here's the system. http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothe...l-project.html Thanks for the info on the number 2 tip. I've got no clue what that is, but I'll look it up. I have not purchased a rig yet. After I get some filler metal, I'll check out my old torch with MAPP gas to see what's possible. Then, I'll look into getting a portable torch rig. I've been talking to a buddy who told me not to buy tanks, since I might be able to get them locally for less money (no shipping). And he tells me the local Gas supply guys don't re-fill the tanks, they swap them for loaner tanks, when you come in for a refill. If you bring in your own tanks(to trade for full ones), you have to present a bill-of-sale, because they don't want to be charged with receiving stolen property. (A lot of thefts in this area, it's near Boston)..

05-22-11, 10:19 AM	#3
lstaz66 Lurking Renovator Join Date: May 2011 Location: Tampa,Fla Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	OK...So your going to vacumm the system when fix is complete.Thats a pretty neat system..I havent seen that before. Yep..When ya take new tanks to get filled they swap them..If your not going to buy a complete rig..( Tanks and all) Check out Northerntool.com.They have setups for about $150.00. Again..speaking with my teach..He frowned upon buying rig and tanks seperate...I guess tanks can get pretty expensive..and when all said and done..Your paying about the same ?..Ya might be able to find tanks on ebay etc. But dunno about the regulators..I think thats where all the money is ?

05-22-11, 11:06 PM	#4
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	At work, I have an American Beauty soldering rig.. It's a auto-transformer connected to the pinchers. I use them to solder SMA connectors on .141" hardline coax cables. The cables are good up to about 25 gHz.. I grip the base of the connector (sliver plated alloy) with the pincher probes. When I step on the foot petal, the current turns the connector red hot within a few seconds. A ring of solder, wrapped around the cable melts and flows into the connector body, bonding it to the cable's shield. It's the little brother of this one.. YouTube - ‪Resistance brazing 3/8 and 1/2" copper tubing, using American Beauty resistance soldering equipment.‬&rlm;

05-22-11, 11:26 PM	#5
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	I've got 8.8 oz of filler metal coming at the end of this week. I hope it works ok on AC plumbing. I plan to try it with MAPP gas. May not even melt.. It's an experiment. Check out the sellers note on the auction page.. PLEASE READ CAREFULLY: UP FOR AUCTION IS 4.4 OUNCES (4 RODS 36 INCHES LONG) OF SILVER BRAZING ROD. THESE RODS ARE FROM THE 70'S AND ARE NOT STAMPED. I'VE HAD THEM SINCE THEN AND USED THEM MANY TIMES FOR SWEATING COPPER, ETC., FLOWS VERY NICELY. ON THE TATTERED BOX I WROTE MANY YEARS AGO WITH PEN: 15 ALLOY EH 144 1/8 X .05 X 36 IN. SINCE THEY'RE NOT STAMPED I AM LISTING THEM AT 5% SILVER AND NOT 15% CONTENT TO COVER MY BUTT IN THE EVENT OF NIT PICKING (NO OFFENSE INTENDED). IF YOUR JOB IS CRITICAL FOR 5% PLEASE DO NOT BID ON THESE RODS. THEY ARE 36 INCHES LONG. FOR SHIPPING PURPOSES I WILL BEND THEM TO FIT INTO A SMALLER BOX. YOU CAN ALWAYS BEND THEM BACK OR CUT THEM WHEN YOU GET THEM. FREE SHIPPING IN LOWER USA. I'M LISTING THESE 4 RODS AT A TIME BUT IF YOU WANT MORE JUST BID ON THE REST, FREE SHIPPING, MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. THESE RODS STILL HAVE SOME LUSTER BUT ARE NOT BRIGHT AND SHINY. KEY WORDS: SILVER SOLDER BRAZE BRAZING WELDING SWEATING

05-24-11, 07:51 AM	#6
lstaz66 Lurking Renovator Join Date: May 2011 Location: Tampa,Fla Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	If the tank is rightside up...Should be vapor right ?..Upside down for liquid ?..Just a thought !

05-24-11, 11:39 AM	#10
lstaz66 Lurking Renovator Join Date: May 2011 Location: Tampa,Fla Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Guess I was backwards..Good to remember lol..Thanx !