Solar with HP study - Page 2

randen · 01-19-15, 10:19 AM

With solar hot water collection and bore hole technology you can omitt a heat-pump all together and just use the stored heat energy directly.

You can all relax, All the studies have been done. Its proven technology. Its been functional since 2007 and its providing 90% of the annual heat load. In a cold harsh climate.

Hey you can't knock that kind of success.

The method:
Solar hot water is collected (nothing fancy here just flat plate collectors)during the sumer and pumped into a Bore Hole field.

The surrounding rocks and soil are heated to a near max of 80 Deg. C.

The heat is then returned to the buildings during the winter supplying 90% of their heating requirments.

You should check-out the site it has a interactive display of current operational information real-time.

http://www.dlsc.ca/index.htm

Randen

buffalobillpatrick · 01-19-15, 02:37 PM

Randen, PAHS don't work with high water table + flow. (condition at my site)

The injected solar heat would move away from the bore holes with the water flow.
Injected heat must be used within days, not 6 months.

Mikesolar · 01-19-15, 05:40 PM

BBP, have a look at the system. These systems are not using a traditional bore hole. Some of them insulate a very large pit which is filled with earth and lots of tubing. Water table is not as relevant. The one Randen is talking about is near Calgary, Alberta and can it be very cold. I've been there to see it a number of years ago and it works pretty well. There are 50+ systems like these in Europe as well.

That said, It is really questionable whether it is worth adding heat to the borehole in a regular GSHP. I think way too much of the heat will be lost to the environment......UNLESS.....there is as much input from the collector area as output to the HP. Just my 2 cents.

Aram_Gir · 01-20-15, 06:20 AM

Very interestic post, thank you!

jhwelder · 02-18-15, 07:54 PM

Would this be realistic to use on a horizontal loop field? I have a solar water heater and could add heat in the fall after the cooling season to bring the temperature up a little higher. This is my first year on my self installed gshp system, not sure how warm my loops will get by the end of summer.

buffalobillpatrick · 02-18-15, 08:26 PM

jhwelder, I say YES, but only with extra heat over & above your DHW needs.

Ron342 · 02-26-15, 12:01 PM

From their website it looks like the Alberta installation only insulates the top of their field and unless they have dry maybe sandy soil down to the 35 meter bottom of the field, you would think it would be a losing proposition. Looks like it works for them tho.
I would think that in not so cold weather, an insulated storage tank to store any daytime solar heat beyond dhw use maybe could be used later that nite to further heat the ground loop water before it goes to the heat pump.
A bunch of years ago a friend wound up with an extended hoe backhoe - since it was sitting around my plan was to get him to dig the widest deepest hole he could (mostly clay here in Maryland guys) line the bottom and sides with 6 or 8 inches of sheet foam, dump the dirt back in with some poly pipe coils circling the inside and cover the top with more foam and a final layer of maybe 18" of dirt and heat the insulated mass of dirt with the excess in summer from my solar hot water system and maybe some added panels , then use the stored heat in a ground water heat pump the following winter.
I figured I would be only out some diesel fuel and beer and maybe $500 for foam and pipe and that it might last thru December.
Sadly tho he managed too sell it before I finished the heat flow math! I wonder if anyone has tried it?

buffalobillpatrick · 03-01-15, 08:36 PM

Ron342, I know that a guy in Ireland did something close to that, he talked about it working for him on 1 of my threads, I don't recall his name.

I looked & found it:

Quote:

Originally Posted by dhaslam

I had a fairly similar situation in Ireland. The ground is layered limestone rock and not practical for a ground loop. After some experimentation I have ended up with an overground heat store that contains about 180,000 litres of clay and rock and is insulated with straw bales. The soil and rock came from the house and avenue excavation as well as two ponds. The store is heated directly with 8 sq metres of solar panels. The temperature is estimated to reach 50C by the end of the summer. The house is mostly heated using a nominal 3 kW GSHP that produces 4.5 kW when water input temperature is 15C. There is also a gasifying stove and separate solar panels for DHW but the heat pump can heat the house on its own if it runs for about eight hours on off peak electricity. There are buffer tanks to mix the water input to the heatpump and to store the output from the stove and heatpump.

The important part is to keep the heat requirement low but DHW will always be needed. In Ireland sun is unpredictable at all times of the year so having an interseasonal store works well. This summer will be the first full heating season, the panels weren't in place until the end of July in 2013 so the temperature only reached 25C.

Ron342 · 03-03-15, 09:52 AM

Thanks BBP - I looked up his posts which led to a long line of sites with underground insulated storage - I think what I carry away is that what heat you keep would be small in relation to the effort! Still can't see how the math works for the Alberta site but back to a smaller in basement tank to act as a daytime flywheel for the solar and geo. heat pump.
The hvac stuff is new to me - I'm in the process of learning to braze up my first pipe joint in a starter ex-window unit geo dwh and evacuate it.

01-19-15, 10:19 AM	#11
randen Uber EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Strathroy Ontario Canada Posts: 658 Thanks: 9 Thanked 192 Times in 130 Posts	Bore hole seasonal heating With solar hot water collection and bore hole technology you can omitt a heat-pump all together and just use the stored heat energy directly. You can all relax, All the studies have been done. Its proven technology. Its been functional since 2007 and its providing 90% of the annual heat load. In a cold harsh climate. Hey you can't knock that kind of success. The method: Solar hot water is collected (nothing fancy here just flat plate collectors)during the sumer and pumped into a Bore Hole field. The surrounding rocks and soil are heated to a near max of 80 Deg. C. The heat is then returned to the buildings during the winter supplying 90% of their heating requirments. You should check-out the site it has a interactive display of current operational information real-time. http://www.dlsc.ca/index.htm Randen

01-19-15, 05:40 PM	#13
Mikesolar Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Toronto Posts: 958 Thanks: 40 Thanked 158 Times in 150 Posts	BBP, have a look at the system. These systems are not using a traditional bore hole. Some of them insulate a very large pit which is filled with earth and lots of tubing. Water table is not as relevant. The one Randen is talking about is near Calgary, Alberta and can it be very cold. I've been there to see it a number of years ago and it works pretty well. There are 50+ systems like these in Europe as well. That said, It is really questionable whether it is worth adding heat to the borehole in a regular GSHP. I think way too much of the heat will be lost to the environment......UNLESS.....there is as much input from the collector area as output to the HP. Just my 2 cents. Last edited by Mikesolar; 01-19-15 at 05:43 PM..

02-26-15, 12:01 PM	#17
Ron342 Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Maryland Posts: 120 Thanks: 26 Thanked 12 Times in 8 Posts	Ground storage From their website it looks like the Alberta installation only insulates the top of their field and unless they have dry maybe sandy soil down to the 35 meter bottom of the field, you would think it would be a losing proposition. Looks like it works for them tho. I would think that in not so cold weather, an insulated storage tank to store any daytime solar heat beyond dhw use maybe could be used later that nite to further heat the ground loop water before it goes to the heat pump. A bunch of years ago a friend wound up with an extended hoe backhoe - since it was sitting around my plan was to get him to dig the widest deepest hole he could (mostly clay here in Maryland guys) line the bottom and sides with 6 or 8 inches of sheet foam, dump the dirt back in with some poly pipe coils circling the inside and cover the top with more foam and a final layer of maybe 18" of dirt and heat the insulated mass of dirt with the excess in summer from my solar hot water system and maybe some added panels , then use the stored heat in a ground water heat pump the following winter. I figured I would be only out some diesel fuel and beer and maybe $500 for foam and pipe and that it might last thru December. Sadly tho he managed too sell it before I finished the heat flow math! I wonder if anyone has tried it?

01-19-15, 02:37 PM	#12
buffalobillpatrick Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Florissant, Colorado Posts: 599 Thanks: 814 Thanked 59 Times in 55 Posts	Randen, PAHS don't work with high water table + flow. (condition at my site) The injected solar heat would move away from the bore holes with the water flow. Injected heat must be used within days, not 6 months.

01-20-15, 06:20 AM	#14
Aram_Gir Lurking Renovator Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Italy Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Very interestic post, thank you!

02-18-15, 07:54 PM	#15
jhwelder Lurking Renovator Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: pa Posts: 9 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Would this be realistic to use on a horizontal loop field? I have a solar water heater and could add heat in the fall after the cooling season to bring the temperature up a little higher. This is my first year on my self installed gshp system, not sure how warm my loops will get by the end of summer.

02-18-15, 08:26 PM	#16
buffalobillpatrick Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Florissant, Colorado Posts: 599 Thanks: 814 Thanked 59 Times in 55 Posts	jhwelder, I say YES, but only with extra heat over & above your DHW needs.

03-03-15, 09:52 AM	#19
Ron342 Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Maryland Posts: 120 Thanks: 26 Thanked 12 Times in 8 Posts	Thanks BBP - I looked up his posts which led to a long line of sites with underground insulated storage - I think what I carry away is that what heat you keep would be small in relation to the effort! Still can't see how the math works for the Alberta site but back to a smaller in basement tank to act as a daytime flywheel for the solar and geo. heat pump. The hvac stuff is new to me - I'm in the process of learning to braze up my first pipe joint in a starter ex-window unit geo dwh and evacuate it.