Reducing solar installation costs: ideas? - Page 2

jjackstone · 03-07-17, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjackstone

I had always thought that where possible the panels and racks should be assembled on the ground or in a shop and then simply lifted and mounted onto a roof. I understand that a small crane might be needed to do this. I believe it would be cost effective if used on a regular basis. Obviously the homework would still need to be done for accurate measurements, making sure the roof can handle the load, and mounting brackets and conduit runs. Same thing with whatever electronics that need to be installed. Build it on a panel in a shop and then just slap it on the wall at the installation site. I used to do this type of thing regularly on a small scale in previous jobs so I see no reason it can't be done on a residential home.

JJ

And I found someone who does it. Although he prefers pole mounts.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi...p?f=41&t=86155

jeff5may · 08-22-17, 07:25 AM

The best, easy way to save boat loads of cash on a solar panel install is to have a good plan. Way too many people start out with something small, like it, and then proceed to expand the output. Most of the time, the two (or more) phases of installed components are completely different and not compatible. A few hours of homework done up front can result in better efficiency and lower total amount spent.

pinballlooking · 08-22-17, 08:12 AM

I agree with Jeff here. I started out wanting something small prove it then grow it. Then I did research and found this would not work very well.
I even looked at making my own panels. Then I found that power companies will not let you grid connect those panels. If you shop for deals you can buy them cheaper with a bankable warranty anyway.

My power company wants a $100 for every change. The array has to be inspected by county with fees every change.
I have to the equipment shipped in by truck the fee for one pallet or two pallets is not very different. I installed 9.2kw first then went to 12.5kw it would have been cheaper to go with 12.5 right from the start.

creeky · 08-22-17, 12:15 PM

Great points.

In my case I started out with a small system. And grew. Being off grid I don't have the inspection costs of course. I saved a lot of money on panels. When i started I was paying $2/w. When I upgraded I was paying .80.

I got lucky on my solar controllers also.

Inverter upgrades pretty much cost me no extra. I find that selling off older equipment usually covers the initial cost. Less handling/taxes.

Occasionally I have actually made money. Solar controller costs didn't drop until this year. So fluctuations in the value of the $C vs $US covered any losses. Again I got lucky. I bought US dollars when the $C was 1.02 and sold at .76. So in one case I netted a bit of profit even after 5 years of use.

Planning for the future is a good thing. Changes in technology though are hard to foresee. I think, perhaps, chancing an "opportunity cost" isn't necessarily a bad thing.

jjackstone · 01-30-18, 01:23 AM

Bringing this thread back to life. I found a couple of methods of installing panels that do not require roof penetration which should decrease installation time.

The first method is essentially a friction based solution. Place a polymer foam on the bottom of the mounting rails so the panels can't move and that's it. I think the article said it has been tested up to 130mph winds. You can read it.
https://www.solarpowerworldonline.co...olar-industry/

The other method lays a framework on both sides of a roof. On one side is just bare frame, on the other side the panels are installed. Makes sense. Keeps the panels from sliding down the roof and makes it more difficult for the wind to lift them. I'm sure a lot of people would have a problem with aesthetics with this one though.

https://cleantechnica.com/2015/12/13...certification/

JJ

creeky · 01-30-18, 09:14 AM

Neat technique. I wish they sold the tech rather than bundling with a system. Maybe I missed something at the website.

Xringer · 01-30-18, 10:11 AM

I saw that 'L' frame technique used years ago. The DIYer used a wooden framework.
IIRC, the YouTube video showed the frame on the north side of the peak, was weighted down with sandbags.
There may have even been some sandbags around the PV array too.

The weight of the steel frame on the backside of this install (pic above) doesn't look like much.
Around here, it's common to get wind gusts over 60 MPH. I've seen the wind move dumpsters around parking lots, in industrial parks.

This past year, my neighbor across the street, has lost some of the siding aluminum trim and a few roof shingles ripped off by high winds.
Top Wind Gusts In Eastern Massachusetts From Blizzard Of 2018 « CBS Boston

pinballlooking · 01-30-18, 10:17 AM

Looking at that setup made me cringe. We don’t always get kind of wind but sometimes we do.
I would not sleep good knowing my array was mounted that way.
I put extra support on my setup. It added very little to the cost of the project.
There is a lot of money sitting on my roof. I even have insurance on it.
I insured it for enough for someone else to replace it.

jjackstone · 01-30-18, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xringer

The weight of the steel frame on the backside of this install (pic above) doesn't look like much.
Around here, it's common to get wind gusts over 60 MPH. I've seen the wind move dumpsters around parking lots, in industrial parks.

I don't think it's the weight of the frame that matters as much as the amount of torque(moment?) that it would take to move the installation in that configuration. One thing I might have done for additional security would be to extend the strut all the way to the edges of the eaves and make a hangers that would slip over the edge in a few different spots.
JJ

Xringer · 01-30-18, 06:09 PM

It is the weight. Because the rig has to weigh enough to resist the 'Lift' that comes from air flow.
The hood on my SUV is pretty heavy.. But, because of the aerodynamic design of the front end,
if the hood latch isn't engaged, and there is a gap 10 or 20 mm wide, a 60 mph wind will lift the hood.
https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...+while+driving

Look at the top and bottom edges of the array.. Do you see the gap?
Wind from the south hitting that bottom edge reminds me of an unlocked car hood.. But not too bad.
Wind from the north side flowing over the peak, will create lift, at the top of the panels..

08-22-17, 08:12 AM	#13
pinballlooking Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: SC Posts: 2,923 Thanks: 172 Thanked 564 Times in 463 Posts	I agree with Jeff here. I started out wanting something small prove it then grow it. Then I did research and found this would not work very well. I even looked at making my own panels. Then I found that power companies will not let you grid connect those panels. If you shop for deals you can buy them cheaper with a bankable warranty anyway. My power company wants a $100 for every change. The array has to be inspected by county with fees every change. I have to the equipment shipped in by truck the fee for one pallet or two pallets is not very different. I installed 9.2kw first then went to 12.5kw it would have been cheaper to go with 12.5 right from the start. __________________ Current project Aquaponics system , Passive Solar Greenhouse build To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Solar Install 12.5 Kwh- To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Mini Split installs - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. EV Chevy Volt - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

08-22-17, 12:15 PM	#14
creeky Journeyman EcoRenovator Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: a field somewhere Posts: 304 Thanks: 64 Thanked 44 Times in 31 Posts	Great points. In my case I started out with a small system. And grew. Being off grid I don't have the inspection costs of course. I saved a lot of money on panels. When i started I was paying $2/w. When I upgraded I was paying .80. I got lucky on my solar controllers also. Inverter upgrades pretty much cost me no extra. I find that selling off older equipment usually covers the initial cost. Less handling/taxes. Occasionally I have actually made money. Solar controller costs didn't drop until this year. So fluctuations in the value of the $C vs $US covered any losses. Again I got lucky. I bought US dollars when the $C was 1.02 and sold at .76. So in one case I netted a bit of profit even after 5 years of use. Planning for the future is a good thing. Changes in technology though are hard to foresee. I think, perhaps, chancing an "opportunity cost" isn't necessarily a bad thing. __________________ Current projects Chevy Volt battery pack conversion To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Blog that is down right now but will return To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Business where I sell solar stuff [url]https://www.bobolinksolar.com

01-30-18, 09:14 AM	#16
creeky Journeyman EcoRenovator Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: a field somewhere Posts: 304 Thanks: 64 Thanked 44 Times in 31 Posts	Neat technique. I wish they sold the tech rather than bundling with a system. Maybe I missed something at the website. __________________ Current projects Chevy Volt battery pack conversion To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Blog that is down right now but will return To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Business where I sell solar stuff [url]https://www.bobolinksolar.com

01-30-18, 10:11 AM	#17
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	I saw that 'L' frame technique used years ago. The DIYer used a wooden framework. IIRC, the YouTube video showed the frame on the north side of the peak, was weighted down with sandbags. There may have even been some sandbags around the PV array too. The weight of the steel frame on the backside of this install (pic above) doesn't look like much. Around here, it's common to get wind gusts over 60 MPH. I've seen the wind move dumpsters around parking lots, in industrial parks. This past year, my neighbor across the street, has lost some of the siding aluminum trim and a few roof shingles ripped off by high winds. Top Wind Gusts In Eastern Massachusetts From Blizzard Of 2018 « CBS Boston __________________ My hobby is installing & trying to repair mini-splits EPA 608 Type 1 Technician Certification ~ 5 lbs or less..

01-30-18, 10:17 AM	#18
pinballlooking Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: SC Posts: 2,923 Thanks: 172 Thanked 564 Times in 463 Posts	Looking at that setup made me cringe. We don’t always get kind of wind but sometimes we do. I would not sleep good knowing my array was mounted that way. I put extra support on my setup. It added very little to the cost of the project. There is a lot of money sitting on my roof. I even have insurance on it. I insured it for enough for someone else to replace it. __________________ Current project Aquaponics system , Passive Solar Greenhouse build To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Solar Install 12.5 Kwh- To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Mini Split installs - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. EV Chevy Volt - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Last edited by pinballlooking; 01-30-18 at 05:09 PM..

08-22-17, 07:25 AM	#12
jeff5may Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: elizabethtown, ky, USA Posts: 2,431 Thanks: 431 Thanked 619 Times in 517 Posts	The best, easy way to save boat loads of cash on a solar panel install is to have a good plan. Way too many people start out with something small, like it, and then proceed to expand the output. Most of the time, the two (or more) phases of installed components are completely different and not compatible. A few hours of homework done up front can result in better efficiency and lower total amount spent.

01-30-18, 01:23 AM	#15
jjackstone Helper EcoRenovator Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sacramento,Ca Posts: 88 Thanks: 5 Thanked 32 Times in 23 Posts	Bringing this thread back to life. I found a couple of methods of installing panels that do not require roof penetration which should decrease installation time. The first method is essentially a friction based solution. Place a polymer foam on the bottom of the mounting rails so the panels can't move and that's it. I think the article said it has been tested up to 130mph winds. You can read it. https://www.solarpowerworldonline.co...olar-industry/ The other method lays a framework on both sides of a roof. On one side is just bare frame, on the other side the panels are installed. Makes sense. Keeps the panels from sliding down the roof and makes it more difficult for the wind to lift them. I'm sure a lot of people would have a problem with aesthetics with this one though. https://cleantechnica.com/2015/12/13...certification/ JJ

01-30-18, 06:09 PM	#20
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	It is the weight. Because the rig has to weigh enough to resist the 'Lift' that comes from air flow. The hood on my SUV is pretty heavy.. But, because of the aerodynamic design of the front end, if the hood latch isn't engaged, and there is a gap 10 or 20 mm wide, a 60 mph wind will lift the hood. https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...+while+driving Look at the top and bottom edges of the array.. Do you see the gap? Wind from the south hitting that bottom edge reminds me of an unlocked car hood.. But not too bad. Wind from the north side flowing over the peak, will create lift, at the top of the panels.. __________________ My hobby is installing & trying to repair mini-splits EPA 608 Type 1 Technician Certification ~ 5 lbs or less..