Motion detector outdoor lights - Page 2

Quest · 01-01-15, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

CFLs run such a horrible power factor its likely inducing some line harmonics onto the wiring. I have seen flickering like this on long strings of ballast powered mercury lamps too.
Using a fixed purely resistive load to snuff out this inductive nonsense is a cheap trick that works really well.

Unless you live in Europe (i.e. France), where power factor is accounted for RE: residental electrical power consumption, here in N.A.: residental electricity billing and consumption, I'm not aware of power factor is being accounted for in the billing.

So, arguing about CFL poor power factor is moot, IMO.

Q.

oil pan 4 · 01-03-15, 05:37 AM

I wondered this once my self not too long ago. I searched and all I could find was lots of people repeating "the power company only charges for watts" like parrots with a traumatic brain injury and exactly zero people actually testing it.
Until now...

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/36999-post7.html

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/37998-post13.html

Sadly my simple tests are the most advanced residential meter testing to be found on the internet.
I have a very simple reproducible test showing that the power company's electromechanical power meter does read VoltAmps and I have first hand observations on digital meters showing multiple billing parameters that can only be a low power factor counter.

Now I have tested 70kw and smaller diesel generators on an advanced load bank that can test both KVA and KW. I know how reactive power really effects the load on the prime mover and believe the power company has every right to charge for VoltAmps, I think they would be stupid not to.
I would be flipping switches on the load bank with my left hand and had the Cummins engine analyzer showing real time engine load and fuel consumption in my other hand. It doesn't get any more clear than that.

Quest · 01-04-15, 02:20 AM

https://www.bchydro.com/news/conserv...er-factor.html

Under " How the power factor surcharge works" section, the last part of paragraph 2 sez :" (This charge does not apply to residential or Small General Service customers.)"

Even in Puget Sound Energy, we do not get billed by kVAR in residental utilities.

Neither does Salt River Project in Arizona.

Power factor correction (kVAR) devices

However, in City of Glendale, CA, they do impose kVAR surcharge on residential utilities, amongst a few other things (like Public Benefits Charge, Rubbish, Hazardous waste, etc.

City of Glendale, CA : Residential Electric Rates

If you live in one of those city, I'm afraid you may might as well switch back to burning whale blubber oil to light your night away...

Folks whose not living under the shadows of post-Enron deregulation area, you can still sleep well, just like the rest of us, knowing full well that residential electricity usage does not include (nor does it care) about power factors.

I'm only aware of maybe a few cali cities that would impose a surcharge on kVAR.

Lastly:

Can Power Factor Correction Devices (sometimes called Amp Reduction Units or kVAR) earn the ENERGY STAR label? Do they really save residential energy users as much money as they claim?

Power factor correction kvar policy in countries

Quest · 01-04-15, 02:22 AM

https://www.bchydro.com/news/conserv...er-factor.html

Under " How the power factor surcharge works" section, the last part of paragraph 2 sez :" (This charge does not apply to residential or Small General Service customers.)"

Even in Puget Sound Energy, we do not get billed by kVAR in residental utilities.

Neither does Salt River Project in Arizona.

Power factor correction (kVAR) devices

However, in City of Glendale, CA, they do impose kVAR surcharge on residential utilities, amongst a few other things (like Public Benefits Charge, Rubbish, Hazardous waste, etc.

City of Glendale, CA : Residential Electric Rates

If you live in one of those city, I'm afraid you may might as well switch back to burning whale blubber oil to light your night away...

Folks whose not living under the shadows of post-Enron deregulation area, you can still sleep well, just like the rest of us, knowing full well that residential electricity usage does not include (nor does it care) about power factors.

I'm only aware of maybe a few cali cities that would impose a surcharge on kVAR.

Lastly:

Can Power Factor Correction Devices (sometimes called Amp Reduction Units or kVAR) earn the ENERGY STAR label? Do they really save residential energy users as much money as they claim?

Power factor correction kvar policy in countries

gtojohn · 01-05-15, 10:19 PM

My Home depot can look up my purchases from the credit card I used. As long as you can get the item number from the light you purchased you should be able to return it for at least store credit.

ecomodded · 01-05-15, 10:45 PM

Quest I followed the link , and copied below the last statement , which states a power factor correcting device would be impractical to use , do to having many motors that need one.

Which to me sounds like they will work for one motor or even a complete fused circuit that could run many 'motors'.

If I understand Power Factor correctly , does it mean the device itself is inefficient with the power consumed. Such as a 100w appliance with a power factor of 57 is using more watts then it would need if its power factor was 98 or 100 ?

from link:

First, residential customers are not charged for KVA-hour usage, but by kilowatt-hour usage. This means that any savings in energy demand will not directly result in lowering a residential user's utility bill. Second, power factor correction devices themselves use energy to work, so the amount of energy they save must be greater than the amount of energy they need to operate. The only potential for real power savings would occur if the product were only put in the circuit while a reactive load (such as a motor) were running, and taken out of the circuit when the motor is not running. This is impractical, given that there are several motors in a typical home that can come on at any time (refrigerator, air conditioner, HVAC blower, vacuum cleaner, etc.), but the unit itself is intended for permanent, unattended connection near the house breaker panel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quest

Can Power Factor Correction Devices (sometimes called Amp Reduction Units or kVAR) earn the ENERGY STAR label? Do they really save residential energy users as much money as they claim?

Power factor correction kvar policy in countries

Quest · 01-08-15, 12:30 AM

@ecomodded:

power factor (kVAR) deviates from 1 form of electrical -->energy conversion to another.

In the world of electricity, there are 3 types of loads: (1) resistive, like a filament light bulb. This is what in the PF world considers to be "ideal" load, or PF=1; (2) inductive load :and (3) is capacitive load.

Inductive load is power-factor lagging (falling behind, or current waveform for the circuit is falling behind the voltage wave), whereas capacitive load is power-factor leading, meaning that the voltage waveform is leading the current wave form for that given circuit.

If the load's reactance is inductive in nature (like a typical AC motor), then paralleling with capacitor(s) carefully shall bring the PF close to 1.

Also reference to this one:

Power Factor Correction

down at the bottom of the page:

"This is why power factor correction is usually done in the distribution network at MV or HV, and not at the end voltage...È

Thats why the inclusion of capacitors (in parallel mode), which introduces additional form of current draw (capacitors do have resistance in them, you know, in the form of ESR, or equivalent Series Resistance) when the motor is not running, thus the presumably savings as PF correction gets defeated as a result.

Lastly, RE: PF calculation, lets take PF=0.75 as an example.

If a CFL lamp is rated @ 13Watts @ PF=0.75, if you to convert back to PF=1, meaning that the ÈrealÈ power draw should be 13Watts divided by 0.75, or 17.33Watts instead.

You lose that so-called 4.33watts due to poor power factor (in this example where PF =0.75), which, in this case, due to the switch mode power supply design within the CFL bulb itself.

Hope that helps.

Q.

oil pan 4 · 01-08-15, 04:42 AM

They don't charge your specifically for Voltamps.
The voltamps just spin your electromechanical meter faster and they bill you for the "KWHs". That way they can say they don't charge for low power factor.

None of that even attempts to explain the situation of why small arc welder that uses 150 watts of real power and 500 VA of apparent power spun the meter almost twice as fast as a 200w light bulb.
If power meters didn't read KVAs and only picked up real power then the light would spin the meter faster than the welding machine.

I am sticking with what my own tests proved. Those links are precisely what I was talking about they assure you that you don't pay for low power factor and again no one is actually testing it.
Ever hear of trust but verify?

Why do you think its so difficult to connect the power factor capacitor so that it turns on and off with the motor or inductor?
All you have to do is wire it on the load side of the motor controlling switch. Its simple.
If you don't know what you are doing when trying to preform power factor correction, the worse that could happen is your die from electrocution and burn down your house. The best that could happen is you save several amps when running your equipment.

Those power factor correction devices sold over the internet or at lowes and the way they are employed are garbage.
I do my power factor correction with box of various motor run capacitors, fluke325 amp clamp, kill-a-watt meter, some trial and error and each device is individually power factor corrected.

Here is one for you. If the power meter doesn't detect excess apparent power consumption then how is the "wasted" reactive power from an unneeded capacitor some novice connected to their breaker panel detected?
So we are expected to believe the power meter can detect leading power factor and you get billed for it but some how it does not read excess lagging power....
That right there is all you need to know.

Quest · 01-08-15, 10:40 PM

maybe you have a meter that does kVAR and now kW/hr?

In my case, my smart meter does only kWatt/hr.

Q.

oil pan 4 · 01-09-15, 12:17 AM

I no longer have the electromechanical meter on my house. The power company pulled it and replaced it with a digital meter, I wouldn't call it a smart meter because the meter reader guy still has a job.

The power meter on our other house has some kind of smart meter. It has a regular KWH counter, then 2 additional counters going on too. One KWH counter for "80% VA" and then a couple months ago I noticed they added a "55% VA" counter too.
They are obviously charging a different rate for lower power factor consumption there.
If I am there while the sun is up I will have to get a picture of these other KWH tallies the meter tracks.

01-08-15, 12:30 AM	#17
Quest Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Canada Posts: 109 Thanks: 13 Thanked 13 Times in 11 Posts	@ecomodded: power factor (kVAR) deviates from 1 form of electrical -->energy conversion to another. In the world of electricity, there are 3 types of loads: (1) resistive, like a filament light bulb. This is what in the PF world considers to be "ideal" load, or PF=1; (2) inductive load :and (3) is capacitive load. Inductive load is power-factor lagging (falling behind, or current waveform for the circuit is falling behind the voltage wave), whereas capacitive load is power-factor leading, meaning that the voltage waveform is leading the current wave form for that given circuit. If the load's reactance is inductive in nature (like a typical AC motor), then paralleling with capacitor(s) carefully shall bring the PF close to 1. Also reference to this one: Power Factor Correction down at the bottom of the page: "This is why power factor correction is usually done in the distribution network at MV or HV, and not at the end voltage...È Thats why the inclusion of capacitors (in parallel mode), which introduces additional form of current draw (capacitors do have resistance in them, you know, in the form of ESR, or equivalent Series Resistance) when the motor is not running, thus the presumably savings as PF correction gets defeated as a result. Lastly, RE: PF calculation, lets take PF=0.75 as an example. If a CFL lamp is rated @ 13Watts @ PF=0.75, if you to convert back to PF=1, meaning that the ÈrealÈ power draw should be 13Watts divided by 0.75, or 17.33Watts instead. You lose that so-called 4.33watts due to poor power factor (in this example where PF =0.75), which, in this case, due to the switch mode power supply design within the CFL bulb itself. Hope that helps. Q. Last edited by Quest; 01-08-15 at 12:49 AM..

01-08-15, 04:42 AM	#18
oil pan 4 Land owner Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: NM Posts: 1,026 Thanks: 12 Thanked 127 Times in 107 Posts	They don't charge your specifically for Voltamps. The voltamps just spin your electromechanical meter faster and they bill you for the "KWHs". That way they can say they don't charge for low power factor. None of that even attempts to explain the situation of why small arc welder that uses 150 watts of real power and 500 VA of apparent power spun the meter almost twice as fast as a 200w light bulb. If power meters didn't read KVAs and only picked up real power then the light would spin the meter faster than the welding machine. I am sticking with what my own tests proved. Those links are precisely what I was talking about they assure you that you don't pay for low power factor and again no one is actually testing it. Ever hear of trust but verify? Why do you think its so difficult to connect the power factor capacitor so that it turns on and off with the motor or inductor? All you have to do is wire it on the load side of the motor controlling switch. Its simple. If you don't know what you are doing when trying to preform power factor correction, the worse that could happen is your die from electrocution and burn down your house. The best that could happen is you save several amps when running your equipment. Those power factor correction devices sold over the internet or at lowes and the way they are employed are garbage. I do my power factor correction with box of various motor run capacitors, fluke325 amp clamp, kill-a-watt meter, some trial and error and each device is individually power factor corrected. Here is one for you. If the power meter doesn't detect excess apparent power consumption then how is the "wasted" reactive power from an unneeded capacitor some novice connected to their breaker panel detected? So we are expected to believe the power meter can detect leading power factor and you get billed for it but some how it does not read excess lagging power.... That right there is all you need to know. Last edited by oil pan 4; 01-08-15 at 04:47 AM..

01-03-15, 05:37 AM	#12
oil pan 4 Land owner Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: NM Posts: 1,026 Thanks: 12 Thanked 127 Times in 107 Posts	I wondered this once my self not too long ago. I searched and all I could find was lots of people repeating "the power company only charges for watts" like parrots with a traumatic brain injury and exactly zero people actually testing it. Until now... http://ecorenovator.org/forum/36999-post7.html http://ecorenovator.org/forum/37998-post13.html Sadly my simple tests are the most advanced residential meter testing to be found on the internet. I have a very simple reproducible test showing that the power company's electromechanical power meter does read VoltAmps and I have first hand observations on digital meters showing multiple billing parameters that can only be a low power factor counter. Now I have tested 70kw and smaller diesel generators on an advanced load bank that can test both KVA and KW. I know how reactive power really effects the load on the prime mover and believe the power company has every right to charge for VoltAmps, I think they would be stupid not to. I would be flipping switches on the load bank with my left hand and had the Cummins engine analyzer showing real time engine load and fuel consumption in my other hand. It doesn't get any more clear than that.

01-04-15, 02:20 AM	#13
Quest Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Canada Posts: 109 Thanks: 13 Thanked 13 Times in 11 Posts	https://www.bchydro.com/news/conserv...er-factor.html Under " How the power factor surcharge works" section, the last part of paragraph 2 sez :" (This charge does not apply to residential or Small General Service customers.)" Even in Puget Sound Energy, we do not get billed by kVAR in residental utilities. Neither does Salt River Project in Arizona. Power factor correction (kVAR) devices However, in City of Glendale, CA, they do impose kVAR surcharge on residential utilities, amongst a few other things (like Public Benefits Charge, Rubbish, Hazardous waste, etc. City of Glendale, CA : Residential Electric Rates If you live in one of those city, I'm afraid you may might as well switch back to burning whale blubber oil to light your night away... Folks whose not living under the shadows of post-Enron deregulation area, you can still sleep well, just like the rest of us, knowing full well that residential electricity usage does not include (nor does it care) about power factors. I'm only aware of maybe a few cali cities that would impose a surcharge on kVAR. Lastly: Can Power Factor Correction Devices (sometimes called Amp Reduction Units or kVAR) earn the ENERGY STAR label? Do they really save residential energy users as much money as they claim? Power factor correction kvar policy in countries

01-04-15, 02:22 AM	#14
Quest Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Canada Posts: 109 Thanks: 13 Thanked 13 Times in 11 Posts	https://www.bchydro.com/news/conserv...er-factor.html Under " How the power factor surcharge works" section, the last part of paragraph 2 sez :" (This charge does not apply to residential or Small General Service customers.)" Even in Puget Sound Energy, we do not get billed by kVAR in residental utilities. Neither does Salt River Project in Arizona. Power factor correction (kVAR) devices However, in City of Glendale, CA, they do impose kVAR surcharge on residential utilities, amongst a few other things (like Public Benefits Charge, Rubbish, Hazardous waste, etc. City of Glendale, CA : Residential Electric Rates If you live in one of those city, I'm afraid you may might as well switch back to burning whale blubber oil to light your night away... Folks whose not living under the shadows of post-Enron deregulation area, you can still sleep well, just like the rest of us, knowing full well that residential electricity usage does not include (nor does it care) about power factors. I'm only aware of maybe a few cali cities that would impose a surcharge on kVAR. Lastly: Can Power Factor Correction Devices (sometimes called Amp Reduction Units or kVAR) earn the ENERGY STAR label? Do they really save residential energy users as much money as they claim? Power factor correction kvar policy in countries

01-05-15, 10:19 PM	#15
gtojohn Journeyman EcoRenovator Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 314 Thanks: 39 Thanked 50 Times in 45 Posts	My Home depot can look up my purchases from the credit card I used. As long as you can get the item number from the light you purchased you should be able to return it for at least store credit.

01-08-15, 10:40 PM	#19
Quest Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Canada Posts: 109 Thanks: 13 Thanked 13 Times in 11 Posts	maybe you have a meter that does kVAR and now kW/hr? In my case, my smart meter does only kWatt/hr. Q.

01-09-15, 12:17 AM	#20
oil pan 4 Land owner Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: NM Posts: 1,026 Thanks: 12 Thanked 127 Times in 107 Posts	I no longer have the electromechanical meter on my house. The power company pulled it and replaced it with a digital meter, I wouldn't call it a smart meter because the meter reader guy still has a job. The power meter on our other house has some kind of smart meter. It has a regular KWH counter, then 2 additional counters going on too. One KWH counter for "80% VA" and then a couple months ago I noticed they added a "55% VA" counter too. They are obviously charging a different rate for lower power factor consumption there. If I am there while the sun is up I will have to get a picture of these other KWH tallies the meter tracks.