LED versus T5 efficiency - Page 2

oil pan 4 · 01-24-18, 05:45 AM

I just took a number samples of some of various size LED floods, they are rated from 60 to 70 lumens per volt-amp.
My brand new LED replacements are rated for only 75 lumens per volt-amp.
My regular T5 tube do about 107 lumens per volt-amp
My inefficient T5 high output tubes do 92 lumens per volt-amp, but these are supe bright and start at 0°F, since my T5 HO lights are out side or in building's that are unheated this is kind of important.
Either way, a lot more efficient than LED.
Why does everyone green wash all the LED tech and slam florescent?
Yeah old 1960s tech like T12 florescent suck.

Unlike LED you can actually get high quality T5 parts.
German made T5 tubes are the best by far but they are expensive, around $20 per 4 foot tube. Roughly double the price of Chinese tubes.
Most but not all ballasts are made in china, I have seen a few made in Mexico.

NiHaoMike · 01-24-18, 09:56 PM

Probably because LEDs are easier to focus and easier to dim, making them more efficient in many "real world" applications. It is also worth noting that LEDs tend to be more efficient when dimmed.

That said, if you take a look at Linear Technology, you can find a lot of info about the engineering it takes to make fluorescent lighting efficient. Proper inverter design (good waveforms and all that) makes all the difference for the efficiency of a fluorescent lamp.

oil pan 4 · 01-24-18, 11:07 PM

I don't want or care for dimable lights.
In the real world most lights aren't dimmed.

Plus these T5 fixtures are being used outside and in unheated buildings.

Moreover there are dimable T5 high output motion detection fixtures, where I work we have a few warehouses lit with these. They pop on at full power, dim down to stand T5 brightness, then turn off if they don't sense any motion after a few minutes.

If I want to "dim" my T5 fixtures I take the light fixtures that came with dead ballasts and rewire them with 2 ballasts.
So far I have only installed twin high output ballasts in my 4 tube fixtures and wired them to 2 switches. I could install a standard 2 tube ballast for 28 watt tubes and a high output 54w ballast in the same fixture if I wanted to.
2 high output ballasts give me 10,000 or 20,000 lumen settings, a standard and HO ballast would give me 6,000 , 10,000 or 16,000 lumen settings.
Plus the standard ballasts are cheaper than the high output ballasts, making it even more economical.

Edit: now that I think of it the HO plus standard ballast in the same fixture is a pretty good idea.

jeff5may · 01-25-18, 08:33 AM

Ok so this discussion is focused on two ends of the spectrum and trying to directly compare them. Not fair.

Really to tell the truth, it's a lot easier to find a cheap LED light than a cheap t5 light. The t5 lamps were specifically developed to pack a wallop in a slim tube. Most of the non-HO lamps are specialty spectrum, like aquarium or grow lights or UV bulbs. It's possible to find t5 bulbs that aren't commercial grade, but you have to dig.

In contrast, the inexpensive LED lights are everywhere now. You can go to the dollar store and find them for a dollar. The HO, high efficiency variety are more on par with the t5 specs and price. When you get into the premium stuff, it runs neck and neck with the other high intensity, high efficiency technologies. In today's global economy, it's becoming more and more difficult to find products made economically in this continent. Due to the compact nature of LED emitter chips, it's much more sensible to mass produce them in Asia and ship them in bulk.

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/58508-post20.html

oil pan 4 · 01-25-18, 07:54 PM

And that's how you end up with LEDs that are less efficient than T5 florescent.

And good luck finding single LED fixtures that give 12,000 to 20,000, or even 30,000 lumen. They are out there but they usually have their lumen rating overstated and they are expensive, and still less efficient than T5.

You will be pulling so much wiring, installing so many fixtures to make use of those cheap LEDs it will cost a fortune. And still be less efficient.

Compact LEDs are great for indoor residential lighting where you only need some light. Some where that you need a lot of light over a wide area, not so good.

My wife wants more light in the kitchen, I said alright I will put up one of my T5 fixtures. Because the 3 LED 100w replacements in the middle of the kitchen and 100w replacement cfl over the sink aren't cutting it. She didn't like that idea. I might still do it anyways.
We would be going from less than 4,000 lumen to 12,000 to 20,000 lumen depending on what I put in the fixture.
To get 12,000 lumen with cheap LEDs I would need to put up more than a dozen of them. That means adding boxes, pulling wires, installing fixtures. I would be surprised if I could do it for less than $15 per fixture my self plus it would be an all day project.

NiHaoMike · 01-25-18, 10:53 PM

100W LED modules (that's an actual 100W, not 100W equivalent) are about $10 on Amazon. Get two of them, run them at 60% or so power, and you'll very easily get the level of light you're looking for. (For that matter, just one at 75% power will probably be enough or even too much - they really are insanely bright. Hard to describe unless you actually see one powered up in real life.)

oil pan 4 · 01-25-18, 11:19 PM

I use "250w replacement LED floods" my favorite fixtures use 3 of these it lights up a half acre pretty good. Total they use 78w or about 90 volt-amps. But they are $33 each, but some of them the original 3 I bought are 5 years old now, I have 11 of them and plan to install more.
I have some LED light bars on my tractor and suburban, that use between 120 and 200 watts. They are pretty bright.
I had to use LED because my old tractors' alternator was only rated to make 20 amps.

Plus are these $10 100w leds even UL rated?
Burning down my house with cheap LED lights isn't going to save me any money.

NiHaoMike · 01-25-18, 11:38 PM

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00CZ6QDDU/
I plan to use mine in a portable photographic/strobe light.

jeff5may · 01-26-18, 01:52 AM

Mike,

I agree those 100 (actual) watt emitters are super high intensity! They are almost too bright for their size. I love the fact that there are so many enclosure and lens/diffuser options made to house them also.

Quick specs:
Model: 100W

Color: Warm White/Cool White

Forward Voltage (VF): DC 30-34V

Forward current (IF): 3000-3500MA

Out put Lumens: 8000-9000LM

Color Temperature: 6000-6500K(Cool White)/4500-5500K(Warm White)

Beam Angel: 140 degrees

Life span: >50,000 hours

So yes,oil pan is correct:A T5 lamp is brighter watt for watt with the right power source. Also, they don't need a heat sink. These SMD led emitters aren't a universal, generic part yet. But for a couple bucks apiece, they sure do fit in a lot of other fixtures with a little imagination.

Gavin · 01-29-18, 06:58 PM

I just installed 100 MaxLite 4 foot T5 bypass 25W tubes. (5000K) in our warehouse.
They are significantly brighter than the T5 HO that they are replacing. My i-sphere is too small to test them.

According to the GE ballast name plate the HOs were drawing 60W each wall power (Surprising I thought they were around 32-40W)
I'll run some tests when I get a chance to check actual watts, power factor etc. With the new (2018) utility incentive these tubes ended up costing us less than $1 each (plus my labor to install of course).
If nominal values are even close to correct, this should produce big savings.
The T5 direct wire (bypass) LED tubes did not become available until this year so ignore that you read about T5 replacement tubes prior to 2018.

01-24-18, 09:56 PM	#12
NiHaoMike Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,154 Thanks: 14 Thanked 257 Times in 241 Posts	Probably because LEDs are easier to focus and easier to dim, making them more efficient in many "real world" applications. It is also worth noting that LEDs tend to be more efficient when dimmed. That said, if you take a look at Linear Technology, you can find a lot of info about the engineering it takes to make fluorescent lighting efficient. Proper inverter design (good waveforms and all that) makes all the difference for the efficiency of a fluorescent lamp. __________________ To my surprise, shortly after Naomi Wu gave me a bit of fame for making good use of solar power, Allie Moore got really jealous of her...

01-25-18, 08:33 AM	#14
jeff5may Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: elizabethtown, ky, USA Posts: 2,431 Thanks: 431 Thanked 619 Times in 517 Posts	Ok so this discussion is focused on two ends of the spectrum and trying to directly compare them. Not fair. Really to tell the truth, it's a lot easier to find a cheap LED light than a cheap t5 light. The t5 lamps were specifically developed to pack a wallop in a slim tube. Most of the non-HO lamps are specialty spectrum, like aquarium or grow lights or UV bulbs. It's possible to find t5 bulbs that aren't commercial grade, but you have to dig. In contrast, the inexpensive LED lights are everywhere now. You can go to the dollar store and find them for a dollar. The HO, high efficiency variety are more on par with the t5 specs and price. When you get into the premium stuff, it runs neck and neck with the other high intensity, high efficiency technologies. In today's global economy, it's becoming more and more difficult to find products made economically in this continent. Due to the compact nature of LED emitter chips, it's much more sensible to mass produce them in Asia and ship them in bulk. http://ecorenovator.org/forum/58508-post20.html Last edited by jeff5may; 02-07-18 at 01:00 PM..

01-25-18, 07:54 PM	#15
oil pan 4 Land owner Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: NM Posts: 1,026 Thanks: 12 Thanked 127 Times in 107 Posts	And that's how you end up with LEDs that are less efficient than T5 florescent. And good luck finding single LED fixtures that give 12,000 to 20,000, or even 30,000 lumen. They are out there but they usually have their lumen rating overstated and they are expensive, and still less efficient than T5. You will be pulling so much wiring, installing so many fixtures to make use of those cheap LEDs it will cost a fortune. And still be less efficient. Compact LEDs are great for indoor residential lighting where you only need some light. Some where that you need a lot of light over a wide area, not so good. My wife wants more light in the kitchen, I said alright I will put up one of my T5 fixtures. Because the 3 LED 100w replacements in the middle of the kitchen and 100w replacement cfl over the sink aren't cutting it. She didn't like that idea. I might still do it anyways. We would be going from less than 4,000 lumen to 12,000 to 20,000 lumen depending on what I put in the fixture. To get 12,000 lumen with cheap LEDs I would need to put up more than a dozen of them. That means adding boxes, pulling wires, installing fixtures. I would be surprised if I could do it for less than $15 per fixture my self plus it would be an all day project. Last edited by oil pan 4; 01-25-18 at 08:27 PM..

01-25-18, 10:53 PM	#16
NiHaoMike Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,154 Thanks: 14 Thanked 257 Times in 241 Posts	100W LED modules (that's an actual 100W, not 100W equivalent) are about $10 on Amazon. Get two of them, run them at 60% or so power, and you'll very easily get the level of light you're looking for. (For that matter, just one at 75% power will probably be enough or even too much - they really are insanely bright. Hard to describe unless you actually see one powered up in real life.) __________________ To my surprise, shortly after Naomi Wu gave me a bit of fame for making good use of solar power, Allie Moore got really jealous of her...

01-25-18, 11:19 PM	#17
oil pan 4 Land owner Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: NM Posts: 1,026 Thanks: 12 Thanked 127 Times in 107 Posts	I use "250w replacement LED floods" my favorite fixtures use 3 of these it lights up a half acre pretty good. Total they use 78w or about 90 volt-amps. But they are $33 each, but some of them the original 3 I bought are 5 years old now, I have 11 of them and plan to install more. I have some LED light bars on my tractor and suburban, that use between 120 and 200 watts. They are pretty bright. I had to use LED because my old tractors' alternator was only rated to make 20 amps. Plus are these $10 100w leds even UL rated? Burning down my house with cheap LED lights isn't going to save me any money. Last edited by oil pan 4; 01-25-18 at 11:25 PM.. Reason: Because I am trying to post comments on my phone

01-24-18, 05:45 AM	#11
oil pan 4 Land owner Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: NM Posts: 1,026 Thanks: 12 Thanked 127 Times in 107 Posts	I just took a number samples of some of various size LED floods, they are rated from 60 to 70 lumens per volt-amp. My brand new LED replacements are rated for only 75 lumens per volt-amp. My regular T5 tube do about 107 lumens per volt-amp My inefficient T5 high output tubes do 92 lumens per volt-amp, but these are supe bright and start at 0°F, since my T5 HO lights are out side or in building's that are unheated this is kind of important. Either way, a lot more efficient than LED. Why does everyone green wash all the LED tech and slam florescent? Yeah old 1960s tech like T12 florescent suck. Unlike LED you can actually get high quality T5 parts. German made T5 tubes are the best by far but they are expensive, around $20 per 4 foot tube. Roughly double the price of Chinese tubes. Most but not all ballasts are made in china, I have seen a few made in Mexico.

01-24-18, 11:07 PM	#13
oil pan 4 Land owner Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: NM Posts: 1,026 Thanks: 12 Thanked 127 Times in 107 Posts	I don't want or care for dimable lights. In the real world most lights aren't dimmed. Plus these T5 fixtures are being used outside and in unheated buildings. Moreover there are dimable T5 high output motion detection fixtures, where I work we have a few warehouses lit with these. They pop on at full power, dim down to stand T5 brightness, then turn off if they don't sense any motion after a few minutes. If I want to "dim" my T5 fixtures I take the light fixtures that came with dead ballasts and rewire them with 2 ballasts. So far I have only installed twin high output ballasts in my 4 tube fixtures and wired them to 2 switches. I could install a standard 2 tube ballast for 28 watt tubes and a high output 54w ballast in the same fixture if I wanted to. 2 high output ballasts give me 10,000 or 20,000 lumen settings, a standard and HO ballast would give me 6,000 , 10,000 or 16,000 lumen settings. Plus the standard ballasts are cheaper than the high output ballasts, making it even more economical. Edit: now that I think of it the HO plus standard ballast in the same fixture is a pretty good idea.

01-25-18, 11:38 PM	#18
NiHaoMike Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,154 Thanks: 14 Thanked 257 Times in 241 Posts	https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00CZ6QDDU/ I plan to use mine in a portable photographic/strobe light. __________________ To my surprise, shortly after Naomi Wu gave me a bit of fame for making good use of solar power, Allie Moore got really jealous of her...

01-26-18, 01:52 AM	#19
jeff5may Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: elizabethtown, ky, USA Posts: 2,431 Thanks: 431 Thanked 619 Times in 517 Posts	Mike, I agree those 100 (actual) watt emitters are super high intensity! They are almost too bright for their size. I love the fact that there are so many enclosure and lens/diffuser options made to house them also. Quick specs: Model: 100W Color: Warm White/Cool White Forward Voltage (VF): DC 30-34V Forward current (IF): 3000-3500MA Out put Lumens: 8000-9000LM Color Temperature: 6000-6500K(Cool White)/4500-5500K(Warm White) Beam Angel: 140 degrees Life span: >50,000 hours So yes,oil pan is correct:A T5 lamp is brighter watt for watt with the right power source. Also, they don't need a heat sink. These SMD led emitters aren't a universal, generic part yet. But for a couple bucks apiece, they sure do fit in a lot of other fixtures with a little imagination. Attached Thumbnails Last edited by jeff5may; 01-26-18 at 01:33 PM..

01-29-18, 06:58 PM	#20
Gavin Lurking Renovator Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Good 25W LED T5 bypass tubes now available. I just installed 100 MaxLite 4 foot T5 bypass 25W tubes. (5000K) in our warehouse. They are significantly brighter than the T5 HO that they are replacing. My i-sphere is too small to test them. According to the GE ballast name plate the HOs were drawing 60W each wall power (Surprising I thought they were around 32-40W) I'll run some tests when I get a chance to check actual watts, power factor etc. With the new (2018) utility incentive these tubes ended up costing us less than $1 each (plus my labor to install of course). If nominal values are even close to correct, this should produce big savings. The T5 direct wire (bypass) LED tubes did not become available until this year so ignore that you read about T5 replacement tubes prior to 2018.