DIY Geothermal install - Page 2

pinballlooking · 11-20-18, 09:28 PM

I talked with Terra Source today. I got to talk to the guy that designs the loops very helpful.

One pipe option is SDR-9 pipe 3/4" size is pre-charged with 190 proof industrial antifreeze.

This system is pressurized but flushing is simpler since loops are pre-charged with antifreeze and sealed.

I would need to buy a larger bucket a 16” bucket for my backhoe (that is the biggest bucket I can run). I would have 4 loops but put two loops per trench.

Two 300’ trenches each having two loops. This would cut my install time by a lot.

3-ton Tranquility 30 system with some extra loop pipe and keep the mini splits.

Warranty is done through them. DIY does not void warranty.

I put the numbers through the software and it looks good to me.

The installer that did my quote said the don’t use aux heater coils here.

It is $236 to add 10K auxiliary heat coils. My mini splits only work down to 5 degrees.

In the last 5 years we had one week where 4 days it was colder that cold. I still wonder if I should install them.

Cost is $9,560.56 depending on shipping could very a little.
My out of pocket cost would be $4,302.25 after tax credits.

randen · 11-20-18, 09:42 PM

Pinballlooking

The price for everything, is that the field loop tubing and pump centre??? With the rebate thats awesome. For us the cost was $7000.00 just for the Heat-pump and plus plus plus. With the price of $4000.00 and everything, who do I make the cheque out to.??

You may be able to place your pump centre outside and run the supply tubes into your heat-pump in the crawl space. so you could do your purge outside. Just build a little cover to keep the weather off it. You will need to add the anti-freeze regardless.

Your ability to excavate your own field loop is a huge advantage.!!!!!!!!!!

4 ton still sounds like WAY too much for a home in SC. We as I had said have a 3 ton which handles a Canadian Climate on 3600 sq ft. 90% of the time. Only on those -22 Deg C. nights with the wind just howling does the second unit start.

Air-conditioning is a non issue. 36 Deg.C days high humidity not a problem!!! Just let it purr. Very Very effective. The heats going into the ground to help with the following seasons heating.

For some reason some contractors like to oversize the equipment. They do the same for gas furnaces. Short cycling the Heat-pumps is a huge no-no. Our 3 ton's start current 83 amps. short cycle just runs up the electric bill.

When you get this all installed and running you will love it.!!!

If you are thick-skinned enough to build your own I would use a 3 Ph compressor and use a Variable Frequency Drive. for soft starts and adjusting the loads for the 2 seasons.
The Heat-pump that I had crafted for the shop turn-out to be a most fantastic machine. Although it did test me.

Randen

pinballlooking · 11-20-18, 09:59 PM

I love reading the DIY geo builds on here.
This system comes pre charged as most Geo do and has 5 year warranty parts and labor. Then a 10 year parts only warranty. I don't have the knowledge to take on a build. This will be plenty of project for me.

Yes that quote is for everything every fitting loop tubing and pump center.
I just dig trenches and put it all together they even prewire it for the pump center. Fuse valves on the tubing everything.

This last quote was for a 3-ton 2 stage system. I am just going to use a little more loop pipe to help it out and keep my mini splits.

They ship the loop pipe with antifreeze in them and valves on them.
I am going to run it all under the foundation they have a pump and manifold pressure gauge air purge valve station.

This is the Unit
https://cdn.iwae.com/media/manuals/c...ifications.pdf

My wife is so so on board because we have netzeroed a couple years. But our state loses the tax credit next year and fed tax credit goes down next year this is the time to do it.
It will never be cheaper than right now. I have to run the loop field through the horse pasture she is not thrilled with that either. We have agreed on a place to run it and fence it off. We only have one horse left.

My new little tractor is going to earn its keep.

pinballlooking · 11-21-18, 01:31 PM

I checked a couple other places and they were all 8 weeks out to get a system that would not work with the current tax credits. They even called the factory they only had a left return no right return so they have to build it. They were all more money also.

I just put a deposit down on the system it was in stock.
3-ton Tranquility 30 system two stage with 4 600’ pipe and pump center.
I will pay for it the first week in December.

I did a test dig and this is not going to happen with my tractor.
It is a 6' max hoe but 5' took 25 min maybe 3' long.
I can use it to dig close to the house and to the fence that is about 25’.

It will do great to fill the trench back in and level it out but there is no way it is going to do the whole dig.

It is 600’ per ton but I am going to put in 4 600’ loops. That is 600 foot more loop than is required.

Now I will have to talk to my neighbor about renting his mini excavator.
I think he has a 2' bucket so I would need to 300' trenches.
I will cover it all back up with my tractor.

I am excited but it will be a big project.

pinballlooking · 11-26-18, 09:34 PM

You can down load the Loop Logix Geothermal Design Software here for free. Demo version but full functional just can't save or change location. (I installed the on a very old laptop) My deep earth temp is 55 degrees. This is set to 50 but pretty close. but the weather degree days will be off so will the cost.

http://www.heatcontroller.com/produc...l-Residential/

Here are a couple reports I created for my new system.
Very cool.

It will tell you how much water is in the loop.
It tell you how many loops how long.
What config you want to do.
All great info.
lots of good info for no cost.

A local person that did a DIY climate master Geothermal install. Same exact system I am buying invited me over to look at it.
It was nice to see it in operation and hear about the install.

I am not sure how good this is but I used this for my manual J
HVAC Load Calculation - Maunualj - Whole House Loadcalc

My hot water savings will be more than what is shown it does not know how good my natural gas tankless heater is $291.28 was a year worth for my gas bill. my guess is it could save me around $58 natural gas.

pinballlooking · 11-27-18, 06:12 PM

I have been thinking about using my greenhouse monitoring to monitor my Geothermal.
I have three zones free and some spare temp probes.
I would put one temp probe for (EWT) entering water temp and one for Leaving water temp (LWT).
The other one I would add a contactor the would let me know when to was running.

I would have to fish the line through small conduit.
I knew I should have put in bigger conduit.

The sell monitoring systems but I think this would give me enough info. For no cost.

I am getting a iGate thermostat that has all this info but it is not WiFi crazy. I am on my computer all the time so I would like to see the results real time. I keep TED up on my computer all the time so I see any power usage and solar production.

They only offer WiFi on their most expensive unit but it is almost double the cost.

pinballlooking · 11-28-18, 01:24 PM

I talked to a local Geo installer today super nice guy. He is going to quote just connecting my new Geo system to the ductwork.
Uninstalling the old system.

He was so helpful and would share anything I asked. He gave me loop advice and tons of advice.
We talked for 50 min he even asked me questions to see how much I read up on it. I was able to answer his questions.

He told me to put my manifold as soon as you open the crawl space door. If we needed to use a flush cart, we would not have to use it under the crawl space.

He suggested to digging two a 3’ trench 300’ foot long and putting two loops in each.
He told me exactly what soil I would have and how well it will conduct heat.

I told him my idea taking rain water from my gutters and sending that to the trenches was a good idea.

I paid for 1/2 the system today it should ship by Friday when I will pay for the balance.

pinballlooking · 11-29-18, 11:39 PM

As I get closer to my system shipping, I am I little nervous that 3 ton will be enough heat.
I know my AC was over sized so cooling I am not worried about that. The mini splits do an amazing job cooling at a very low cost.
I do want it to run more in the summer for humidity.

The guy that a visited local said cooling was amazing with Geo.
It is just the heating that I keep think about. (My wife does not like being cold)
It is a very big under taking that you hopefully I have running for years. Heck it has a 10-year warranty.

I may down the road close off my crawl space put plastic down and a dehumidifier. That would warm up the floors.
I have insulation under the floor would I have to take that off?

pinballlooking · 11-30-18, 01:32 PM

I bought a buffer tank for the Geo hot water heat.
Marathon 50 Gallon Electric MR50245
https://www.rheem.com/product/marath...nty-msr50245c/
hopefully it lasts a very long time and keep the water hot a long time.
I found a 20% off sale and free shipping I will also get a 55% tax credit on it.

I did not add the 10K auxiliary heat coils. They are not covered under the tax credit. They don't mount in the Geo Unit and they need another breaker that my current panel does not have.
The local installer usually does not install them around here anyway.

jeff5may · 12-01-18, 09:10 AM

I wouldn't be worrying about heating capacity. From the spreadsheet, it looks like the heat pump can keep up with the load down to -8 degrees. As you said, the ground is 5 degrees warmer than the software model. Plus you're burying extra pipe for the loop. If it's -8 out, mama gonna shiver just looking out the window. I'm in Kentucky, and I know it hasn't been that cold here in a few years. Didn't hit Negative digits last winter at all.

You know what to do if you want warm floors. It involves wasting a little supply air or laying more pipe to put heat there. As with everything insulation, more is better if you do it correctly.

11-20-18, 09:28 PM	#11
pinballlooking Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: SC Posts: 2,923 Thanks: 172 Thanked 564 Times in 463 Posts	I talked with Terra Source today. I got to talk to the guy that designs the loops very helpful. One pipe option is SDR-9 pipe 3/4" size is pre-charged with 190 proof industrial antifreeze. This system is pressurized but flushing is simpler since loops are pre-charged with antifreeze and sealed. I would need to buy a larger bucket a 16” bucket for my backhoe (that is the biggest bucket I can run). I would have 4 loops but put two loops per trench. Two 300’ trenches each having two loops. This would cut my install time by a lot. 3-ton Tranquility 30 system with some extra loop pipe and keep the mini splits. Warranty is done through them. DIY does not void warranty. I put the numbers through the software and it looks good to me. The installer that did my quote said the don’t use aux heater coils here. It is $236 to add 10K auxiliary heat coils. My mini splits only work down to 5 degrees. In the last 5 years we had one week where 4 days it was colder that cold. I still wonder if I should install them. Cost is $9,560.56 depending on shipping could very a little. My out of pocket cost would be $4,302.25 after tax credits. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Current project Aquaponics system , Passive Solar Greenhouse build To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Solar Install 12.5 Kwh- To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Mini Split installs - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. EV Chevy Volt - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Last edited by pinballlooking; 01-09-19 at 07:43 PM..

11-20-18, 09:59 PM	#13
pinballlooking Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: SC Posts: 2,923 Thanks: 172 Thanked 564 Times in 463 Posts	I love reading the DIY geo builds on here. This system comes pre charged as most Geo do and has 5 year warranty parts and labor. Then a 10 year parts only warranty. I don't have the knowledge to take on a build. This will be plenty of project for me. Yes that quote is for everything every fitting loop tubing and pump center. I just dig trenches and put it all together they even prewire it for the pump center. Fuse valves on the tubing everything. This last quote was for a 3-ton 2 stage system. I am just going to use a little more loop pipe to help it out and keep my mini splits. They ship the loop pipe with antifreeze in them and valves on them. I am going to run it all under the foundation they have a pump and manifold pressure gauge air purge valve station. This is the Unit https://cdn.iwae.com/media/manuals/c...ifications.pdf My wife is so so on board because we have netzeroed a couple years. But our state loses the tax credit next year and fed tax credit goes down next year this is the time to do it. It will never be cheaper than right now. I have to run the loop field through the horse pasture she is not thrilled with that either. We have agreed on a place to run it and fence it off. We only have one horse left. My new little tractor is going to earn its keep. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Current project Aquaponics system , Passive Solar Greenhouse build To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Solar Install 12.5 Kwh- To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Mini Split installs - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. EV Chevy Volt - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Last edited by pinballlooking; 11-20-18 at 11:01 PM..

11-21-18, 01:31 PM	#14
pinballlooking Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: SC Posts: 2,923 Thanks: 172 Thanked 564 Times in 463 Posts	I checked a couple other places and they were all 8 weeks out to get a system that would not work with the current tax credits. They even called the factory they only had a left return no right return so they have to build it. They were all more money also. I just put a deposit down on the system it was in stock. 3-ton Tranquility 30 system two stage with 4 600’ pipe and pump center. I will pay for it the first week in December. I did a test dig and this is not going to happen with my tractor. It is a 6' max hoe but 5' took 25 min maybe 3' long. I can use it to dig close to the house and to the fence that is about 25’. It will do great to fill the trench back in and level it out but there is no way it is going to do the whole dig. It is 600’ per ton but I am going to put in 4 600’ loops. That is 600 foot more loop than is required. Now I will have to talk to my neighbor about renting his mini excavator. I think he has a 2' bucket so I would need to 300' trenches. I will cover it all back up with my tractor. I am excited but it will be a big project. __________________ Current project Aquaponics system , Passive Solar Greenhouse build To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Solar Install 12.5 Kwh- To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Mini Split installs - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. EV Chevy Volt - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Last edited by pinballlooking; 11-22-18 at 11:50 AM..

11-26-18, 09:34 PM	#15
pinballlooking Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: SC Posts: 2,923 Thanks: 172 Thanked 564 Times in 463 Posts	You can down load the Loop Logix Geothermal Design Software here for free. Demo version but full functional just can't save or change location. (I installed the on a very old laptop) My deep earth temp is 55 degrees. This is set to 50 but pretty close. but the weather degree days will be off so will the cost. http://www.heatcontroller.com/produc...l-Residential/ Here are a couple reports I created for my new system. Very cool. It will tell you how much water is in the loop. It tell you how many loops how long. What config you want to do. All great info. lots of good info for no cost. A local person that did a DIY climate master Geothermal install. Same exact system I am buying invited me over to look at it. It was nice to see it in operation and hear about the install. I am not sure how good this is but I used this for my manual J HVAC Load Calculation - Maunualj - Whole House Loadcalc My hot water savings will be more than what is shown it does not know how good my natural gas tankless heater is $291.28 was a year worth for my gas bill. my guess is it could save me around $58 natural gas. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Current project Aquaponics system , Passive Solar Greenhouse build To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Solar Install 12.5 Kwh- To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Mini Split installs - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. EV Chevy Volt - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Last edited by pinballlooking; 11-27-18 at 04:58 PM..

11-27-18, 06:12 PM	#16
pinballlooking Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: SC Posts: 2,923 Thanks: 172 Thanked 564 Times in 463 Posts	I have been thinking about using my greenhouse monitoring to monitor my Geothermal. I have three zones free and some spare temp probes. I would put one temp probe for (EWT) entering water temp and one for Leaving water temp (LWT). The other one I would add a contactor the would let me know when to was running. I would have to fish the line through small conduit. I knew I should have put in bigger conduit. The sell monitoring systems but I think this would give me enough info. For no cost. I am getting a iGate thermostat that has all this info but it is not WiFi crazy. I am on my computer all the time so I would like to see the results real time. I keep TED up on my computer all the time so I see any power usage and solar production. They only offer WiFi on their most expensive unit but it is almost double the cost. __________________ Current project Aquaponics system , Passive Solar Greenhouse build To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Solar Install 12.5 Kwh- To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Mini Split installs - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. EV Chevy Volt - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Last edited by pinballlooking; 11-29-18 at 09:22 PM..

11-20-18, 09:42 PM	#12
randen Uber EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Strathroy Ontario Canada Posts: 657 Thanks: 9 Thanked 191 Times in 129 Posts	Pinballlooking The price for everything, is that the field loop tubing and pump centre??? With the rebate thats awesome. For us the cost was $7000.00 just for the Heat-pump and plus plus plus. With the price of $4000.00 and everything, who do I make the cheque out to.?? You may be able to place your pump centre outside and run the supply tubes into your heat-pump in the crawl space. so you could do your purge outside. Just build a little cover to keep the weather off it. You will need to add the anti-freeze regardless. Your ability to excavate your own field loop is a huge advantage.!!!!!!!!!! 4 ton still sounds like WAY too much for a home in SC. We as I had said have a 3 ton which handles a Canadian Climate on 3600 sq ft. 90% of the time. Only on those -22 Deg C. nights with the wind just howling does the second unit start. Air-conditioning is a non issue. 36 Deg.C days high humidity not a problem!!! Just let it purr. Very Very effective. The heats going into the ground to help with the following seasons heating. For some reason some contractors like to oversize the equipment. They do the same for gas furnaces. Short cycling the Heat-pumps is a huge no-no. Our 3 ton's start current 83 amps. short cycle just runs up the electric bill. When you get this all installed and running you will love it.!!! If you are thick-skinned enough to build your own I would use a 3 Ph compressor and use a Variable Frequency Drive. for soft starts and adjusting the loads for the 2 seasons. The Heat-pump that I had crafted for the shop turn-out to be a most fantastic machine. Although it did test me. Randen

11-28-18, 01:24 PM	#17
pinballlooking Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: SC Posts: 2,923 Thanks: 172 Thanked 564 Times in 463 Posts	I talked to a local Geo installer today super nice guy. He is going to quote just connecting my new Geo system to the ductwork. Uninstalling the old system. He was so helpful and would share anything I asked. He gave me loop advice and tons of advice. We talked for 50 min he even asked me questions to see how much I read up on it. I was able to answer his questions. He told me to put my manifold as soon as you open the crawl space door. If we needed to use a flush cart, we would not have to use it under the crawl space. He suggested to digging two a 3’ trench 300’ foot long and putting two loops in each. He told me exactly what soil I would have and how well it will conduct heat. I told him my idea taking rain water from my gutters and sending that to the trenches was a good idea. I paid for 1/2 the system today it should ship by Friday when I will pay for the balance. __________________ Current project Aquaponics system , Passive Solar Greenhouse build To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Solar Install 12.5 Kwh- To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Mini Split installs - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. EV Chevy Volt - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Last edited by pinballlooking; 11-28-18 at 07:57 PM..

11-29-18, 11:39 PM	#18
pinballlooking Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: SC Posts: 2,923 Thanks: 172 Thanked 564 Times in 463 Posts	As I get closer to my system shipping, I am I little nervous that 3 ton will be enough heat. I know my AC was over sized so cooling I am not worried about that. The mini splits do an amazing job cooling at a very low cost. I do want it to run more in the summer for humidity. The guy that a visited local said cooling was amazing with Geo. It is just the heating that I keep think about. (My wife does not like being cold) It is a very big under taking that you hopefully I have running for years. Heck it has a 10-year warranty. I may down the road close off my crawl space put plastic down and a dehumidifier. That would warm up the floors. I have insulation under the floor would I have to take that off? __________________ Current project Aquaponics system , Passive Solar Greenhouse build To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Solar Install 12.5 Kwh- To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Mini Split installs - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. EV Chevy Volt - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Last edited by pinballlooking; 12-03-18 at 11:10 PM..

11-30-18, 01:32 PM	#19
pinballlooking Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: SC Posts: 2,923 Thanks: 172 Thanked 564 Times in 463 Posts	I bought a buffer tank for the Geo hot water heat. Marathon 50 Gallon Electric MR50245 https://www.rheem.com/product/marath...nty-msr50245c/ hopefully it lasts a very long time and keep the water hot a long time. I found a 20% off sale and free shipping I will also get a 55% tax credit on it. I did not add the 10K auxiliary heat coils. They are not covered under the tax credit. They don't mount in the Geo Unit and they need another breaker that my current panel does not have. The local installer usually does not install them around here anyway. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Current project Aquaponics system , Passive Solar Greenhouse build To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Solar Install 12.5 Kwh- To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Mini Split installs - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. EV Chevy Volt - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

12-01-18, 09:10 AM	#20
jeff5may Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: elizabethtown, ky, USA Posts: 2,431 Thanks: 431 Thanked 619 Times in 517 Posts	I wouldn't be worrying about heating capacity. From the spreadsheet, it looks like the heat pump can keep up with the load down to -8 degrees. As you said, the ground is 5 degrees warmer than the software model. Plus you're burying extra pipe for the loop. If it's -8 out, mama gonna shiver just looking out the window. I'm in Kentucky, and I know it hasn't been that cold here in a few years. Didn't hit Negative digits last winter at all. You know what to do if you want warm floors. It involves wasting a little supply air or laying more pipe to put heat there. As with everything insulation, more is better if you do it correctly.