5 Ton GSHP Build - Page 13

TechShop · 07-08-15, 01:10 PM

I live in the 98367 zip code. Thanks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by AC_Hacker

You should state your zip code, I can do a visual statistical history for your local. Sounds very similar to where I live.
-AC

randen · 07-27-15, 12:13 PM

Summer has made it to Southwestern Ontario Canada. Outside temps reaching 34 Deg. C and humidity of 80%. Really nice for the beach or drinking beer under a tree.

Having some work in the shop not so nice!! Standing in-front of a warm machine with coolant quenching the metal while its being worked liberating steam raising the already high humidity. (80 %) anything above 24 Deg. C is quite uncomfortable.

But wait we have air-conditioning. And OH BOY that thing is working well.

Flip the diversion valve to change the field loop to now the air handler for the evaporator circuit and set the thermostat. The Variable Frequency Drive reduces the out-put or the evaporator lowers to a temp that the antifreeze cannot cope. ( could add a little more to get protection to -25 Deg C.)The machine purrs along at about half power sending chilled propylene glycol to the air handler (-5 to -10 Deg. C.) The humid air then passes through the air-handler having its load of water rung out. It just runs steady at quite a stream. Interestingly enough the shop air temp doesn't lower very quickly until the humidity is removed.

In the photo you will notice the frost on the 1" copper tubes Yes some insulation is needed there. I believe the system could over-power the air-handler heat-exchanger and totally block with ice if the compressor is powered up.

The system is in a very good balance. The shop can start out in the morning at 27 Deg. C. with a humidity of 80% after 2.5 hrs the shop is 19 Deg. C. at 48% humidity. WOW.

One day I had set the temp low to see what would happen. 34 Deg. C. outside and the shop 16 Deg. That's getting down right chilly. And only half throttle!!! In the photo you can see that the O/S air temp is 33.9 Deg. C. and inside is a comfortable 20 Deg. C.

Quite nice for the machinist to function for the day. I set it at 19 Deg. C. and its happy holding that all day cycling on and off.

You can DIY but its work and a few bucks.

Randen

P.S. I'm really interested to see what Memphis91 is going to have with his DX heat-pump

Mikesolar · 07-27-15, 04:16 PM

Show off......hehe

Nice to have 3 phase, eh

Daox · 09-10-15, 07:43 AM

Excellent work Randen. Thank you for sharing it all with us!

randen · 10-21-15, 07:24 PM

Here in Ontario Canada we have had a taste of winter. Last week a couple inches of snow. Low night temps of -2 Deg. C.

Today I switched the 4 way valve from COOLING to HEATING. During the air-conditioning season I was playing with Refrigerant charge and TXV plus compressor speed optimizing for the air-conditioning for max performance. And boy it did perform.

Now 3 months later we are back to heat mode. I found some huge performance enhancements here. The refrigerant charge seems to be optimal and the tweaking to the TXV proved fruitful. During todays operation the fan center was unable to keep the heat out-put to a net loss to the shop air temp. The variable frequency drive VFD was reducing the compressors output 60% to keep things in check. This equates to a out-put of 4 Tons at a rate of 1200 watts.

Warming a shop with less than the power of a hair-dryer Awesome.

Randen

MEMPHIS91 · 10-21-15, 07:58 PM

Awesome! As was reading this I heard our old 4 ton heat pump kick on, it is making old people noises, groans and moans. It is really close to dying I'm sure. Which means DX system will start soon hopefully.
Did you ever check to see if the vfd would run on single phase? I will buy the compressor and vfd as soon as I know for sure.

mejunkhound · 10-22-15, 01:04 AM

out-put of 4 Tons at a rate of 1200 watts.

COP of 11+ ??
Warmer outside than inside ?

For COP of 11, what were condenser and evap temperatures?
e.g 4T = 48K btu/hr
divide by 3412 btu/kw-hr = 14.1 kW heat transfer
divide by 1.2 kW = COP of 11.7

Or, maybe redo your calcs??

Would love to see your Mollier diagram of a COP 11.7 system.

Mikesolar · 10-22-15, 07:00 AM

Randen, How did you measure the power? phase to phase or phase to ground?
I wonder if the 1200w is not just on one phase.

randen · 10-22-15, 05:32 PM

Mejunkhound

I have no way to measure the heat output other than my air-handler that's rated for 3 tons would not dissipate the heat supplied by the compressor. The temperature of the water/glycol continued to climb.

The VFD was operating the compressor at 25 Hz and the compressor is actually a 7 ton R22 three ph. So I'm just guessing 3.5 Ton out-put??

Unless I'm measuring wrong on one phase 5.8 amps x 210 volts is 1218 watts

either way its working extremely well

Randen

TechShop · 10-22-15, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randen

Mejunkhound
I have no way to measure the heat output other than my air-handler that's rated for 3 tons would not dissipate the heat supplied by the compressor. The temperature of the water/glycol continued to climb.
Randen

One way to get an estimate of heat output is to do the following:

1) Monitor the temperature differential of the fluid across the heat exchanger when the system is running under it's highest loaded condition.
2) Monitor the fluid flowrates through the HX at the same time.

Determine the heat capacity of your water/glycol mixture and do some math.

For example, let's say you have tested the system and come up with the following data:
1) delta-T of 11.6 degrees across the HX
2) 9.4 gallons per minute flow through the HX

Some math:
(The constants)
-One gallon of water weighs 8.34 lbs.
-One BTU/Hr will raise one pound of water 1 degree Fahrenheit in one hour.

The most basic formula you can use is:
Degrees * GPM * 8.34 * 60 = BTU/Hr moved

Simplified:

Degrees * GPM * 500.4 = BTU/Hr moved

So:

11.6 * 9.4 * 500.4 = 54563.616 BTU/Hr

Now you have to apply the correction factor for your hydronic fluid. Let's say your water/glycol mixture is 97% as efficient as water for heat transfer.

.97 * 54563.616 = 52926.7 BTU/Hr is the corrected heat output.

If you apply the same test and calculation to your ground source HX, you should come up with a number that is very close to the same. In a perfect world, it would be the same except for the difference due to heat added by the electrical current and resistance going through the compressor and pump motors.

You can apply the same type of calculation to your air handler to determine the amount of heat it is moving as well.

07-27-15, 12:13 PM	#122
randen Uber EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Strathroy Ontario Canada Posts: 657 Thanks: 9 Thanked 191 Times in 129 Posts	5 Ton DIY GSHP Build Summer has made it to Southwestern Ontario Canada. Outside temps reaching 34 Deg. C and humidity of 80%. Really nice for the beach or drinking beer under a tree. Having some work in the shop not so nice!! Standing in-front of a warm machine with coolant quenching the metal while its being worked liberating steam raising the already high humidity. (80 %) anything above 24 Deg. C is quite uncomfortable. But wait we have air-conditioning. And OH BOY that thing is working well. Flip the diversion valve to change the field loop to now the air handler for the evaporator circuit and set the thermostat. The Variable Frequency Drive reduces the out-put or the evaporator lowers to a temp that the antifreeze cannot cope. ( could add a little more to get protection to -25 Deg C.)The machine purrs along at about half power sending chilled propylene glycol to the air handler (-5 to -10 Deg. C.) The humid air then passes through the air-handler having its load of water rung out. It just runs steady at quite a stream. Interestingly enough the shop air temp doesn't lower very quickly until the humidity is removed. In the photo you will notice the frost on the 1" copper tubes Yes some insulation is needed there. I believe the system could over-power the air-handler heat-exchanger and totally block with ice if the compressor is powered up. The system is in a very good balance. The shop can start out in the morning at 27 Deg. C. with a humidity of 80% after 2.5 hrs the shop is 19 Deg. C. at 48% humidity. WOW. One day I had set the temp low to see what would happen. 34 Deg. C. outside and the shop 16 Deg. That's getting down right chilly. And only half throttle!!! In the photo you can see that the O/S air temp is 33.9 Deg. C. and inside is a comfortable 20 Deg. C. Quite nice for the machinist to function for the day. I set it at 19 Deg. C. and its happy holding that all day cycling on and off. You can DIY but its work and a few bucks. Randen P.S. I'm really interested to see what Memphis91 is going to have with his DX heat-pump Attached Thumbnails Last edited by Daox; 07-27-15 at 06:21 PM..

09-10-15, 07:43 AM	#124
Daox Administrator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Germantown, WI Posts: 5,525 Thanks: 1,162 Thanked 374 Times in 305 Posts	Excellent work Randen. Thank you for sharing it all with us! __________________ Current project - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. & To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

10-21-15, 07:24 PM	#125
randen Uber EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Strathroy Ontario Canada Posts: 657 Thanks: 9 Thanked 191 Times in 129 Posts	5 Ton GSHP Build Here in Ontario Canada we have had a taste of winter. Last week a couple inches of snow. Low night temps of -2 Deg. C. Today I switched the 4 way valve from COOLING to HEATING. During the air-conditioning season I was playing with Refrigerant charge and TXV plus compressor speed optimizing for the air-conditioning for max performance. And boy it did perform. Now 3 months later we are back to heat mode. I found some huge performance enhancements here. The refrigerant charge seems to be optimal and the tweaking to the TXV proved fruitful. During todays operation the fan center was unable to keep the heat out-put to a net loss to the shop air temp. The variable frequency drive VFD was reducing the compressors output 60% to keep things in check. This equates to a out-put of 4 Tons at a rate of 1200 watts. Warming a shop with less than the power of a hair-dryer Awesome. Randen

10-21-15, 07:58 PM	#126
MEMPHIS91 Journeyman EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Oxford, MS USA Posts: 496 Thanks: 69 Thanked 87 Times in 61 Posts	Awesome! As was reading this I heard our old 4 ton heat pump kick on, it is making old people noises, groans and moans. It is really close to dying I'm sure. Which means DX system will start soon hopefully. Did you ever check to see if the vfd would run on single phase? I will buy the compressor and vfd as soon as I know for sure. __________________ שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל ה' אֱלֹהֵינוּ ה' אֶחָד

07-27-15, 04:16 PM	#123
Mikesolar Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Toronto Posts: 958 Thanks: 40 Thanked 158 Times in 150 Posts	Show off......hehe Nice to have 3 phase, eh

10-22-15, 01:04 AM	#127
mejunkhound Apprentice EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: PNW Posts: 197 Thanks: 0 Thanked 47 Times in 31 Posts	out-put of 4 Tons at a rate of 1200 watts. COP of 11+ ?? Warmer outside than inside ? For COP of 11, what were condenser and evap temperatures? e.g 4T = 48K btu/hr divide by 3412 btu/kw-hr = 14.1 kW heat transfer divide by 1.2 kW = COP of 11.7 Or, maybe redo your calcs?? Would love to see your Mollier diagram of a COP 11.7 system.

10-22-15, 07:00 AM	#128
Mikesolar Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Toronto Posts: 958 Thanks: 40 Thanked 158 Times in 150 Posts	Randen, How did you measure the power? phase to phase or phase to ground? I wonder if the 1200w is not just on one phase.

10-22-15, 05:32 PM	#129
randen Uber EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Strathroy Ontario Canada Posts: 657 Thanks: 9 Thanked 191 Times in 129 Posts	Mejunkhound I have no way to measure the heat output other than my air-handler that's rated for 3 tons would not dissipate the heat supplied by the compressor. The temperature of the water/glycol continued to climb. The VFD was operating the compressor at 25 Hz and the compressor is actually a 7 ton R22 three ph. So I'm just guessing 3.5 Ton out-put?? Unless I'm measuring wrong on one phase 5.8 amps x 210 volts is 1218 watts either way its working extremely well Randen