5 Ton GSHP Build - Page 11

Mikesolar · 03-06-15, 06:54 AM

I'd be surprised if Randen had design specs. AFAIK, this is a seat of the pants proper DIY install, haha. Works well though.

AC_Hacker · 03-06-15, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikesolar

I'd be surprised if Randen had design specs. AFAIK, this is a seat of the pants proper DIY install, haha. Works well though.

"Seat of the pants" is great, especially if you have a very large backlog of experience.

And an intuitive, unplanned approach is also great, of you are dealing with low-expense parts or processes.

But for a major project like a Ground Source Heat Pump, 'cut & fit' or 'try a bit of this', and if it doesn't work, 'try a bit if that'... can quickly add up to many 10s of thousands of dollars.

That's where careful research and planning and design come in.

And randen is no ordinary DIY guy, he is a highly skilled machinist, who has been successfully running his own CNC business for some years, I don't know how many.

He already had a GSHP installed in his home, so he was no stranger to what it was, and how it worked.

And, as I recall, he asked around his locale to see what other people were doing there.

I would hardly call the many years of skill that randen brought to his project, and how he approached it, "seat of the pants DIY".

I guess the reason I'm saying all this is that you may just be responding to OldWiz, but over time, many hundreds of other people will also read this, and they could be misled by what you have written.

-AC

Mikesolar · 03-06-15, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AC_Hacker

"Seat of the pants" is great, especially if you have a very large backlog of experience.

And an intuitive, unplanned approach is also great, of you are dealing with low-expense parts or processes.

But for a major project like a Ground Source Heat Pump, 'cut & fit' or 'try a bit of this', and if it doesn't work, 'try a bit if that'... can quickly add up to many 10s of thousands of dollars.

That's where careful research and planning and design come in.

And randen is no ordinary DIY guy, he is a highly skilled machinist, who has been successfully running his own CNC business for some years, I don't know how many.

He already had a GSHP installed in his home, so he was no stranger to what it was, and how it worked.

And, as I recall, he asked around his locale to see what other people were doing there.

I would hardly call the many years of skill that randen brought to his project, and how he approached it, "seat of the pants DIY".

I guess the reason I'm saying all this is that you may just be responding to OldWiz, but over time, many hundreds of other people will also read this, and they could be misled by what you have written.

-AC

Haha, AC, I know Randen quite well and, you are right, it was not exactly seat of the pants but it was close. He is a quick study on refrigeration has a good grasp of the fundamentals.

We've talked about many a system over beers.

randen · 04-03-15, 03:59 PM

Well Winter here is giving up the fight. And what a match it was- Extremely Cold and windy for extended periods. My electric bill took a beating. Really glad the oil man is not allowed here anymore.

The shop remained comfortable for the whole season. The DIY geothermal heat-pump purred away without a hiccup.
I will be perfectly honest, there were days -22 Deg. C. and wind out of the north that caused the pump to run almost non stop all day and night at an approximate 4 Ton output (adjustable variable frequency drive)
Saving a few bucks was the goal. But the Tool Maker was kept comfortable for a meager amount of money during a very harsh winter by a homemade heat-pump.

I was quite concerned about the health of the ground loop. I saw a temp of 2.4 Deg. C. from the loop during the coldest week. But it provided the heat required.

We had a increase in the cost of KWHs Nov. 2014. That coupled with the extra cold season threw my anticipation of heating costs out the window. I will review the costs and post the results. But again it would be no comparison to what the oil-man would present.

Randen

Mikesolar · 04-03-15, 04:01 PM

Get that solar up and running

AC_Hacker · 04-03-15, 08:23 PM

Yeah, and extra insulation.

-AC

jeff5may · 04-04-15, 08:32 AM

Let me take a moment to reflect on that statement.

During one of the worst and coldest winters in the last 50 years, your homemade 5 ton heat pump put out 4 tons of heat transfer at -22 degrees celsius. It "almost" ran constantly during the worst cold, but did not need a backup source to keep you comfortable. On top of all that, the system saved you a heap of money compared to your prior heating system.

In previous generations and eras, statements such as these would have landed randen in a trial by ordeal or burned at the stake for heresy. Luckily, we don't live in the past, and all the experts can do is point their fingers with frowny faces. In the present day, things like this are possible and within the reach of mere "amateur hackers" with skill and determination. The process has been demystified, and is only getting easier to accomplish because of system builder like randen.

I commend and applaud your awesome success at this point in the road. I would say "the end", but I know better. It's no wonder you run a successful small business.

BTW, how much would you charge to do this to my place.....?

randen · 04-04-15, 01:49 PM

Jeff5may

Thanks for your kind words. I have to also thank others like AC_Hacker that started me (us) down this road. Who would have thought you can build your own.???

I pulled out the electric bills and spread sheet. The period of time before Geothermal heat for the shop and for the same months Nov to Mar inc. The shop used 7340 kwhs more this season. This figure seems quite accurate for three seasons.

Now we have to adjust this amount and estimate for a shop that was extremely busy for this March and the brutal sub-zero gail force north wind. My first attempt 2.0 ton would have never kept the frost off the shop this year!!!

The cost for the extra consumption is 7340*$0.22=$1614.80 for electric.
I would adjust this for an extra busy shop-$500.00 for the period.
This would mean a heating bill of $1100.00

However even if the heating was $1600.00 its still excellent as oil heat would be well north of $3000.00 So easily half the cost.

Personally; I wrestle with the time and efforts made to assemble my system. And a wrestle it was!!! I know now if I had applied my efforts and time to my daytime job I could have easily bought a commercial HP. Warranty, tested, who knows possibly a little more efficient????

I would support anyone that would take it on. Maybe with some hard earned advice and "luck" they could build a unit and save a lot of bucks

As pointed out further action of more insulation and sealing the shop would indeed help the case. So so many things to consider. My wife is in my corner when it comes to renewables. I have a green light if it comes to solar or wind generation. A pergola with a PV canopy, stainless tube construction, the CAD drawing is made and a quote for the materials is on file..!!!

Good news if anyone has been following, the electric truck has started to show some life. The 3rd generation of controller is turning the tires. A test drive is not far off now!!! The feeling that its now possible to be off the fossil fuel tit is amazing. Just yesterday gasoline went from $0.99/Ltr to $1.06/Ltr

I hate having the gun to the head. What will the price be tomorrow.

Randen

AC_Hacker · 04-05-15, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randen

... I have to also thank others like AC_Hacker that started me (us) down this road. Who would have thought you can build your own.???

...and I want to thank you for having the presence of mind to photograph and report back, detailing your progress. It was very important that you shared your successes, but also, maybe even more important that you detailed your mistakes. Not only does this provide a truer path for others to follow, but it shows by example that you don't have to get it right the first time, and that corrective steps are simply part of the process.

Also, in leaving a clear record, you not only warmed a tool-maker's shop, you also left a trail of sparks that could fire the imagination of others, tempting them to try it on their own.

Congratulations,

-AC_Hacker

randen · 05-11-15, 06:56 PM

In Strathroy Ontario today the outside air temp hit 31Deg C. Homemade GSHP kept the shop at 18 Deg.C. Just for a bit of a test. I think I can get it colder if I increase the power via the variable frequency drive as it was just loafing.!!!!???

It seams to work OK for air conditioning as well.

Randen

04-03-15, 08:23 PM	#106
AC_Hacker Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 4,004 Thanks: 303 Thanked 724 Times in 534 Posts	Yeah, and extra insulation. -AC __________________ I'm not an HVAC technician. In fact, I'm barely even a hacker...

04-04-15, 01:49 PM	#108
randen Uber EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Strathroy Ontario Canada Posts: 657 Thanks: 9 Thanked 191 Times in 129 Posts	5 ton GSHP Jeff5may Thanks for your kind words. I have to also thank others like AC_Hacker that started me (us) down this road. Who would have thought you can build your own.??? I pulled out the electric bills and spread sheet. The period of time before Geothermal heat for the shop and for the same months Nov to Mar inc. The shop used 7340 kwhs more this season. This figure seems quite accurate for three seasons. Now we have to adjust this amount and estimate for a shop that was extremely busy for this March and the brutal sub-zero gail force north wind. My first attempt 2.0 ton would have never kept the frost off the shop this year!!! The cost for the extra consumption is 7340$0.22=$1614.80 for electric. I would adjust this for an extra busy shop-$500.00 for the period. This would mean a heating bill of $1100.00 However even if the heating was $1600.00 its still excellent as oil heat would be well north of $3000.00 So easily half the cost. Personally; I wrestle with the time and efforts made to assemble my system. And a wrestle it was!!! I know now if I had applied my efforts and time to my daytime job I could have easily bought a commercial HP. Warranty, tested, who knows possibly a little more efficient???? I would support anyone that would take it on. Maybe with some hard earned advice and "luck" they could build a unit and save a lot of bucks As pointed out further action of more insulation and sealing the shop would indeed help the case. So so many things to consider. My wife is in my corner when it comes to renewables. I have a green light if it comes to solar or wind generation. A pergola with a PV canopy, stainless tube construction, the CAD drawing is made and a quote for the materials is on file..!!! Good news if anyone has been following, the electric truck has started to show some life. The 3rd generation of controller is turning the tires. A test drive is not far off now!!! The feeling that its now possible to be off the fossil fuel tit is amazing. Just yesterday gasoline went from $0.99/Ltr to $1.06/Ltr I hate having the gun to the head. What will the price be tomorrow. Randen Attached Thumbnails Last edited by Daox; 04-05-15 at 10:18 AM..*

03-06-15, 06:54 AM	#101
Mikesolar Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Toronto Posts: 958 Thanks: 40 Thanked 158 Times in 150 Posts	I'd be surprised if Randen had design specs. AFAIK, this is a seat of the pants proper DIY install, haha. Works well though.

04-03-15, 03:59 PM	#104
randen Uber EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Strathroy Ontario Canada Posts: 657 Thanks: 9 Thanked 191 Times in 129 Posts	Well Winter here is giving up the fight. And what a match it was- Extremely Cold and windy for extended periods. My electric bill took a beating. Really glad the oil man is not allowed here anymore. The shop remained comfortable for the whole season. The DIY geothermal heat-pump purred away without a hiccup. I will be perfectly honest, there were days -22 Deg. C. and wind out of the north that caused the pump to run almost non stop all day and night at an approximate 4 Ton output (adjustable variable frequency drive) Saving a few bucks was the goal. But the Tool Maker was kept comfortable for a meager amount of money during a very harsh winter by a homemade heat-pump. I was quite concerned about the health of the ground loop. I saw a temp of 2.4 Deg. C. from the loop during the coldest week. But it provided the heat required. We had a increase in the cost of KWHs Nov. 2014. That coupled with the extra cold season threw my anticipation of heating costs out the window. I will review the costs and post the results. But again it would be no comparison to what the oil-man would present. Randen

04-03-15, 04:01 PM	#105
Mikesolar Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Toronto Posts: 958 Thanks: 40 Thanked 158 Times in 150 Posts	Get that solar up and running

04-04-15, 08:32 AM	#107
jeff5may Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: elizabethtown, ky, USA Posts: 2,431 Thanks: 431 Thanked 619 Times in 517 Posts	Let me take a moment to reflect on that statement. During one of the worst and coldest winters in the last 50 years, your homemade 5 ton heat pump put out 4 tons of heat transfer at -22 degrees celsius. It "almost" ran constantly during the worst cold, but did not need a backup source to keep you comfortable. On top of all that, the system saved you a heap of money compared to your prior heating system. In previous generations and eras, statements such as these would have landed randen in a trial by ordeal or burned at the stake for heresy. Luckily, we don't live in the past, and all the experts can do is point their fingers with frowny faces. In the present day, things like this are possible and within the reach of mere "amateur hackers" with skill and determination. The process has been demystified, and is only getting easier to accomplish because of system builder like randen. I commend and applaud your awesome success at this point in the road. I would say "the end", but I know better. It's no wonder you run a successful small business. BTW, how much would you charge to do this to my place.....?

05-11-15, 06:56 PM	#110
randen Uber EcoRenovator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Strathroy Ontario Canada Posts: 657 Thanks: 9 Thanked 191 Times in 129 Posts	In Strathroy Ontario today the outside air temp hit 31Deg C. Homemade GSHP kept the shop at 18 Deg.C. Just for a bit of a test. I think I can get it colder if I increase the power via the variable frequency drive as it was just loafing.!!!!??? It seams to work OK for air conditioning as well. Randen