ICF insulation improvement ? - Page 3

ecomodded · 08-20-17, 02:26 PM

I'll phone them Monday and find out the straight goods on prices and logistics.

If the price shocks me I will rent plywood forms and make a traditional concrete house with exterior insulation applied.

I don't see the need for interior insulation it would allow for faster heat up times but a passive house constant temperature is the goal not quick heat ups.

Today I'll price plywood form rentals and add in the concrete and insulation costs for a 1000 sq.ft house with 2.5' crawl space , then I'll be ready to compare to ICF's costs.

The prices will dictate what I do

ecomodded · 08-21-17, 01:28 PM

Its looking like the choice will be form rental and exterior insulation

I contacted the Company as Nudura's website denoted and low and behold they do not deal with it. he starts talking about cities 1000 miles away and I cut the conversation short and thanked him for the information.

So much for that but it opens new doors to abetter Passive construction.

All the same I'll still hire people and work on the site I have a old childhood friend who has a business pouring and finishing concrete he's the guy for the job his family is in construction.

I like BrucesPatricks foundation!
I would cut out windows a 2nd door and cover it with exterior insulate say 10 inches thick a waterproof skin then french drains and back fill it.

Anywho

heres a quick low down on stick frame vs ICF

The ICF specifications:

#4 dowels, 48" long, spaced 12"
on center.
6" ICF core.
Treated lumber window and door bucks.
#4 bar horizontal at 16" on center and one within 12" of the top of the wall, double at all openings.
#4 bar vertical at 12" on center, double at all openings.
One #5 bar over all openings greater than 48" with a minimum of 24" lintel depth. Widest window is 72".
3/8" aggregate 3500 psi concrete.
36 meter boom pump required to place concrete.
Simpson strong tie hold downs will be used to anchor roof framing.
We will use $3.15 per sq. ft. of ICF for our ICF cost.
We will use $3.00 for ICF labor cost to include all subcontract cost of installation which would include General Liability Insurance, Worker's comp, etc.

Estimating ICF Material and Labor:
Given 230 linear feet of wall. 2,300 gross sq. ft. of wall, figure 18% openings, however, In this example, we'll figure the windows and doors solid and call the labor and material of the "bucks" a trade for formed wall area.

Dowels: 230 pc, = 46 pc #4x20' x$5.50, $253.00
ICF forms, 6" cavity @3.15/sq. ft., $7,245.00
Reinforcing steel (.60 per sq. ft. with our schedule and $$), $1380.00
Concrete at 80.00 per yard, $3407.00
Concrete pump svc estimate, $600.00
Miscellaneous items, etc., $250.00
Embedded hold downs, figure about 75 @2.00, $150.00
Labor to install @3.00 per sq. ft. includes all overhead., $6,900.00

Total cost of ICF installed on a slab with preset dowels:, $20,185.00

When it comes to framing, regardless of whether the home is an ICF or not, the typical framing subcontractor will not reduce the price of the framing bid because the ICF is installed. In this area, many framers want to add to the cost because they can no longer "just walk through the framing", instead, they have to bring materials into the house via a window or door opening.
Framing contractors will typically charge based on the "covered area" and not necessarily by the square footage of the house. Normal framing subcontract costs in Central Texas for "decent" framing crews will run between $3.25 and $4.50 per sq. ft. of covered area. Keep this in mind since there is no labor deduction with an ICF wall home, we will not be deleting labor with the framing estimate, therefore, we won't include it in the framing cost since presumably, the house will still require framing even though it is ICF.

Per the specifications set out earlier, the framing material costs are:
In summary comparison:
Looking only at the cost of the exterior walls of this home, it is obvious that ICF costs much more than wood frame. ICF, as a percentage, increases the cost of the exterior wall roughly two times (200%) the cost of the frame wall. (Consider that the homeowner would at least spend the initial $6537 for frame walls). A builder that is trying to dissuade a homeowner from going ICF would likely use the argument that ICF is over 3x the price of framing (6537x3=$19,611) which is a bit of a stretch since the homeowner is going to spend the $6,537 as a minimum and we're talking about a small overall percentage of the cost of the total home.
When communicating the percent impact on the $300,000 home, the increase is approximately 5%. ($300,000 / $13648.00).
ICF and frame walls are not equal as we all know. I don't believe that a frame wall has any advantage over ICF when it comes to performance, especially over the long term.

see images for summary

ecomodded · 08-22-17, 10:25 PM

Since the last photo boxed in the header with 2x6s mounted the 3/4" plywood flush to the 2x6s and packed gaps around the beam with lumber.

Tomorrow plan is to remove the old wire and grey scratch coat and re paper with 30 weight then tyvek for stucco , wire in prep for ghe first scratch coat

Tomorrow will pick up a 10 ft casing bead and a 8 ft corner edge and drip edge

Its been hot 30 * the plan is to prep all day and scratch coat in the evening so I have time to work it and it can dry over night.

As Im new to stucco the prep will take me a day easy

Been watching Kirk's Giordano's plastering video's getting the jest of it he has videos for every stage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GDE...8#t=573.676729

08-20-17, 02:26 PM	#21
ecomodded Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Vancouver Island,Canada. Posts: 1,037 Thanks: 116 Thanked 100 Times in 87 Posts	I'll phone them Monday and find out the straight goods on prices and logistics. If the price shocks me I will rent plywood forms and make a traditional concrete house with exterior insulation applied. I don't see the need for interior insulation it would allow for faster heat up times but a passive house constant temperature is the goal not quick heat ups. Today I'll price plywood form rentals and add in the concrete and insulation costs for a 1000 sq.ft house with 2.5' crawl space , then I'll be ready to compare to ICF's costs. The prices will dictate what I do __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

08-21-17, 01:28 PM	#22
ecomodded Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Vancouver Island,Canada. Posts: 1,037 Thanks: 116 Thanked 100 Times in 87 Posts	Its looking like the choice will be form rental and exterior insulation I contacted the Company as Nudura's website denoted and low and behold they do not deal with it. he starts talking about cities 1000 miles away and I cut the conversation short and thanked him for the information. So much for that but it opens new doors to abetter Passive construction. All the same I'll still hire people and work on the site I have a old childhood friend who has a business pouring and finishing concrete he's the guy for the job his family is in construction. I like BrucesPatricks foundation! I would cut out windows a 2nd door and cover it with exterior insulate say 10 inches thick a waterproof skin then french drains and back fill it. Anywho heres a quick low down on stick frame vs ICF The ICF specifications: #4 dowels, 48" long, spaced 12" on center. 6" ICF core. Treated lumber window and door bucks. #4 bar horizontal at 16" on center and one within 12" of the top of the wall, double at all openings. #4 bar vertical at 12" on center, double at all openings. One #5 bar over all openings greater than 48" with a minimum of 24" lintel depth. Widest window is 72". 3/8" aggregate 3500 psi concrete. 36 meter boom pump required to place concrete. Simpson strong tie hold downs will be used to anchor roof framing. We will use $3.15 per sq. ft. of ICF for our ICF cost. We will use $3.00 for ICF labor cost to include all subcontract cost of installation which would include General Liability Insurance, Worker's comp, etc. Estimating ICF Material and Labor: Given 230 linear feet of wall. 2,300 gross sq. ft. of wall, figure 18% openings, however, In this example, we'll figure the windows and doors solid and call the labor and material of the "bucks" a trade for formed wall area. Dowels: 230 pc, = 46 pc #4x20' x$5.50, $253.00 ICF forms, 6" cavity @3.15/sq. ft., $7,245.00 Reinforcing steel (.60 per sq. ft. with our schedule and $$), $1380.00 Concrete at 80.00 per yard, $3407.00 Concrete pump svc estimate, $600.00 Miscellaneous items, etc., $250.00 Embedded hold downs, figure about 75 @2.00, $150.00 Labor to install @3.00 per sq. ft. includes all overhead., $6,900.00 Total cost of ICF installed on a slab with preset dowels:, $20,185.00 When it comes to framing, regardless of whether the home is an ICF or not, the typical framing subcontractor will not reduce the price of the framing bid because the ICF is installed. In this area, many framers want to add to the cost because they can no longer "just walk through the framing", instead, they have to bring materials into the house via a window or door opening. Framing contractors will typically charge based on the "covered area" and not necessarily by the square footage of the house. Normal framing subcontract costs in Central Texas for "decent" framing crews will run between $3.25 and $4.50 per sq. ft. of covered area. Keep this in mind since there is no labor deduction with an ICF wall home, we will not be deleting labor with the framing estimate, therefore, we won't include it in the framing cost since presumably, the house will still require framing even though it is ICF. Per the specifications set out earlier, the framing material costs are: In summary comparison: Looking only at the cost of the exterior walls of this home, it is obvious that ICF costs much more than wood frame. ICF, as a percentage, increases the cost of the exterior wall roughly two times (200%) the cost of the frame wall. (Consider that the homeowner would at least spend the initial $6537 for frame walls). A builder that is trying to dissuade a homeowner from going ICF would likely use the argument that ICF is over 3x the price of framing (6537x3=$19,611) which is a bit of a stretch since the homeowner is going to spend the $6,537 as a minimum and we're talking about a small overall percentage of the cost of the total home. When communicating the percent impact on the $300,000 home, the increase is approximately 5%. ($300,000 / $13648.00). ICF and frame walls are not equal as we all know. I don't believe that a frame wall has any advantage over ICF when it comes to performance, especially over the long term. see images for summary Attached Thumbnails __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.