The Davuluri Treatment: using a R410a compressor with R290

NiHaoMike · 09-26-13, 10:53 PM

Anyone who has worked with air conditioning knows that R410a operates at higher pressures than R22 or R290 and therefore requires a complete redesign of the system.

For example, at 115F condensing temperature, R410a operates at a high side pressure of 390PSI.
In contrast, R290 operates at only 214PSI at the same condensing temperature.

Here's an easy way to visualize the pressures: 390PSI is the weight of "fat" Nina Davuluri concentrated over the area of a penny.
And 214PSI is the weight of "skinny" Nina Davuluri concentrated over the area of the same penny.
Nina Davuluri Was Plus-Size Before Winning Miss America, And Calling Mallory Hagan (That kind of makes R410a look like a step backwards, doesn't it?)

It should be obvious that attempting to use R410a in a compressor designed for R22 (or R290) would result in catastrophic failure. But what about the reverse? The compressor would then be "overbuilt" for the refrigerant. With the "Davuluri Treatment", a cheap window A/C can be hacked into a heat pump water heater (that is able to heat the water hot enough for effective dishwashing) or heat pump clothes dryer. It is still necessary to keep the discharge temperature under control, but at least going to higher condensing temperatures wouldn't result in insane pressures. (Just look up the pressure R410a would operate at in a 140F water heater!)

Under more usual operating conditions, I have noted that the compressor I'm using ran significantly quieter. It also seemed to dim the lights less when it starts, even if the start capacitor circuit (optional on rotary compressors) was disconnected. There is, of course, a capacity loss due to the lower displacement, but the power usage also goes down so overall efficiency would be about the same or slightly better. (That could actually be a real blessing if you have a really oversized unit. Recover the R410a, swap out the TXV and filter drier, fill it up with R290, and slow down the evaporator fan.) I remember reading about one or two others who have converted a R410a system to R290 and more or less got the same result I did.

When dehumidification is not needed, there's yet another trick to boost efficiency. Simply run the evaporator fan(s) up high to get the evaporator temperature up and thus the EER. The high suction pressure could overload a regular compressor, but the R410a compressor running on R290 would still be well within the suction pressure limit.

WyrTwister · 09-28-13, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NiHaoMike

Anyone who has worked with air conditioning knows that R410a operates at higher pressures than R22 or R290 and therefore requires a complete redesign of the system.

For example, at 115F condensing temperature, R410a operates at a high side pressure of 390PSI.
In contrast, R290 operates at only 214PSI at the same condensing temperature.

Here's an easy way to visualize the pressures: 390PSI is the weight of "fat" Nina Davuluri concentrated over the area of a penny.
And 214PSI is the weight of "skinny" Nina Davuluri concentrated over the area of the same penny.
Nina Davuluri Was Plus-Size Before Winning Miss America, And Calling Mallory Hagan (That kind of makes R410a look like a step backwards, doesn't it?)

It should be obvious that attempting to use R410a in a compressor designed for R22 (or R290) would result in catastrophic failure. But what about the reverse? The compressor would then be "overbuilt" for the refrigerant. With the "Davuluri Treatment", a cheap window A/C can be hacked into a heat pump water heater (that is able to heat the water hot enough for effective dishwashing) or heat pump clothes dryer. It is still necessary to keep the discharge temperature under control, but at least going to higher condensing temperatures wouldn't result in insane pressures. (Just look up the pressure R410a would operate at in a 140F water heater!)

Under more usual operating conditions, I have noted that the compressor I'm using ran significantly quieter. It also seemed to dim the lights less when it starts, even if the start capacitor circuit (optional on rotary compressors) was disconnected. There is, of course, a capacity loss due to the lower displacement, but the power usage also goes down so overall efficiency would be about the same or slightly better. (That could actually be a real blessing if you have a really oversized unit. Recover the R410a, swap out the TXV and filter drier, fill it up with R290, and slow down the evaporator fan.) I remember reading about one or two others who have converted a R410a system to R290 and more or less got the same result I did.

When dehumidification is not needed, there's yet another trick to boost efficiency. Simply run the evaporator fan(s) up high to get the evaporator temperature up and thus the EER. The high suction pressure could overload a regular compressor, but the R410a compressor running on R290 would still be well within the suction pressure limit.

R290 is propane ?

God bless
Wyr

NiHaoMike · 09-28-13, 02:05 PM

It's often referred to as refrigeration propane or dimethylmethane. Blends based on it are marketed by Enviro-Safe and Duracool. The most common for replacing R22 seems to be R433b or a variant of it.

In the US, it seems like most in HVAC are overly concerned about the safety issues, while elsewhere, it's widely used. But they don't seem to have any problem with all the lithium batteries in modern electronics. And go figure, R1234yf is flammable and turns into toxic gas when burned...

WyrTwister · 09-28-13, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NiHaoMike

It's often referred to as refrigeration propane or dimethylmethane. Blends based on it are marketed by Enviro-Safe and Duracool. The most common for replacing R22 seems to be R433b or a variant of it.

In the US, it seems like most in HVAC are overly concerned about the safety issues, while elsewhere, it's widely used. But they don't seem to have any problem with all the lithium batteries in modern electronics. And go figure, R1234yf is flammable and turns into toxic gas when burned...

I read some about hydro carbon refrigerants this summer . Finally bit the bullet and paid a small fortune for a jug of refrigerant for our central A/C . But , I suspect that jug will last as long as the unit will last .

When it gets replaced , it will probably be with a R410a unit . Which is also what my new mini split uses . But , I have a jug of that , too .

God bless
Wyr

Thepprof · 04-02-14, 09:46 PM

I really had nothing to lose so took a Klimaire 12K unit that had a compressor that locked up. I took a compressor from a 10k window unit and installed it in the Minisplit. I only found 1 article regarding adding R290 to a R410a R22 unit. In this study the Delta T kept getting better up to a point and then it went flat. I had no idea what to do so just put in about 1/2 of what the original unit needed and after about a hour the unit started kicking out 28 degrees difference inside. the Outside temp was about 65 degrees inside about the same. I switched from cool to heat by accident and within a few minutes hot air was flowing.. so much for the skeptics. Now how long the unit will work who knows. It lost a visible amount of oil and Im sure the window Ac compressor had less that the original. Nothing ventured nothing gained..

09-26-13, 10:53 PM	#1
NiHaoMike Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,154 Thanks: 14 Thanked 257 Times in 241 Posts	The Davuluri Treatment: using a R410a compressor with R290 Anyone who has worked with air conditioning knows that R410a operates at higher pressures than R22 or R290 and therefore requires a complete redesign of the system. For example, at 115F condensing temperature, R410a operates at a high side pressure of 390PSI. In contrast, R290 operates at only 214PSI at the same condensing temperature. Here's an easy way to visualize the pressures: 390PSI is the weight of "fat" Nina Davuluri concentrated over the area of a penny. And 214PSI is the weight of "skinny" Nina Davuluri concentrated over the area of the same penny. Nina Davuluri Was Plus-Size Before Winning Miss America, And Calling Mallory Hagan (That kind of makes R410a look like a step backwards, doesn't it?) It should be obvious that attempting to use R410a in a compressor designed for R22 (or R290) would result in catastrophic failure. But what about the reverse? The compressor would then be "overbuilt" for the refrigerant. With the "Davuluri Treatment", a cheap window A/C can be hacked into a heat pump water heater (that is able to heat the water hot enough for effective dishwashing) or heat pump clothes dryer. It is still necessary to keep the discharge temperature under control, but at least going to higher condensing temperatures wouldn't result in insane pressures. (Just look up the pressure R410a would operate at in a 140F water heater!) Under more usual operating conditions, I have noted that the compressor I'm using ran significantly quieter. It also seemed to dim the lights less when it starts, even if the start capacitor circuit (optional on rotary compressors) was disconnected. There is, of course, a capacity loss due to the lower displacement, but the power usage also goes down so overall efficiency would be about the same or slightly better. (That could actually be a real blessing if you have a really oversized unit. Recover the R410a, swap out the TXV and filter drier, fill it up with R290, and slow down the evaporator fan.) I remember reading about one or two others who have converted a R410a system to R290 and more or less got the same result I did. When dehumidification is not needed, there's yet another trick to boost efficiency. Simply run the evaporator fan(s) up high to get the evaporator temperature up and thus the EER. The high suction pressure could overload a regular compressor, but the R410a compressor running on R290 would still be well within the suction pressure limit. __________________ To my surprise, shortly after Naomi Wu gave me a bit of fame for making good use of solar power, Allie Moore got really jealous of her...

09-28-13, 02:05 PM	#3
NiHaoMike Supreme EcoRenovator Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,154 Thanks: 14 Thanked 257 Times in 241 Posts	It's often referred to as refrigeration propane or dimethylmethane. Blends based on it are marketed by Enviro-Safe and Duracool. The most common for replacing R22 seems to be R433b or a variant of it. In the US, it seems like most in HVAC are overly concerned about the safety issues, while elsewhere, it's widely used. But they don't seem to have any problem with all the lithium batteries in modern electronics. And go figure, R1234yf is flammable and turns into toxic gas when burned... __________________ To my surprise, shortly after Naomi Wu gave me a bit of fame for making good use of solar power, Allie Moore got really jealous of her... Last edited by NiHaoMike; 09-28-13 at 02:10 PM..

04-02-14, 09:46 PM	#5
Thepprof Lurking Renovator Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Virginia Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	I really had nothing to lose so took a Klimaire 12K unit that had a compressor that locked up. I took a compressor from a 10k window unit and installed it in the Minisplit. I only found 1 article regarding adding R290 to a R410a R22 unit. In this study the Delta T kept getting better up to a point and then it went flat. I had no idea what to do so just put in about 1/2 of what the original unit needed and after about a hour the unit started kicking out 28 degrees difference inside. the Outside temp was about 65 degrees inside about the same. I switched from cool to heat by accident and within a few minutes hot air was flowing.. so much for the skeptics. Now how long the unit will work who knows. It lost a visible amount of oil and Im sure the window Ac compressor had less that the original. Nothing ventured nothing gained..