Propane (R-290) for heat pumps?

buffalobillpatrick · 11-13-14, 09:37 AM

This was posted on a Pro HVAC site:

"I sure wish you (Pros) would stop the fear mongering, mythology etc about R290.
It is not going to launch your house to the moon!
It is much more efficient than the present garbage being pushed by big business an the EPA. Especially the EPA.
They are spitting out lie after lie to keep you hooked into their systems.
The auto ignition temperature is R290 is quite high making it a much safer gas to be around than gasoline but no one is afraid of gasoline!
I have been servicing my personal central air systems with R290 for over 30 years.
Yes I do check them for leaks with a torch and have found leaks this way.
Yup it lights off! Don't pee your pants just put it out. Usually I blow it out. Wow that was scarey.
Almost every country in the world uses R290 except the USA "GD EPA!"
I also use a blend of R290/R600A in my automobiles. Have been since the lunacy about R12 started. Go get um Dupont. Sell um more crap, "R134A."
Before I'll service my cars with R134A I'll drive with the windows down. That crap will kill you.

Benefits of R290 are due to the uni molecule and a better laminar flow in the tubes, higher heat transfer etc.
Even in old unit designed for R22 you will attain a savings in energy of approximately 20% by just replacing R22 with R290. With a new unit built for R290 you will save even more. First you save in initial cost as the tubing can be smaller, “costing less” the Compressor can be smaller due to the smaller loads, etc, etc, etc.
My house has two units. One is a split unit with the Condenser/Compressor unit on the ground and the Evaporator/Air Handler in the attic above the third floor.
The second unit is a Package 3.5 Ton Miller heat pump.
The Miller was charged with R22 when I purchased it on Ebay for $32.00.
I purchased a Foreclosure "highly vandalized" for setting up for retirement.
The copper had been stolen so fixed up the split unit with copper and wiring and charged it up with the last of my R22 stock. It ran fine did a great job for about three weeks.
I then started checking for leaks as it was not cooling very well. Pressure was down and I found a leak in the air handler.
Not wanting to be ripped off again by my government and Dupont I said to hell with it and dried some old fashioned propane from a 100 lb bottle into a 30 lb recovery bottle.
It's got to be dry! Real dry!
Propane/R290 is totally orderless so they add “Methanethiol (also known as methyl Mercaptan) is a colorless gas with a smell like rotten cabbage” so you can smell it.
I've heard it smells like the cabbage statement as well as rotten eggs. I don't think it smells like either of them.
Mercaptan is Sulfur based and will make Sulfuric Acid in contact with moisture.
Make it dry guys/gals.
I use two large dryers in series with my manifold when charging my service bottle.
Probably over kill but it works. I've never had any problems with years of using it in my systems.

Of course there are manufacturers who make compressors and other equipment designed for R290 which makes it even more efficient.
Smaller tubes as the uni molecule flows more efficiently than R22, “reducing the charge needed” therefore less product to move with the compressor thus saving energy.
Even with that as I stated if you just recharge your old R22 system properly with R290 you will gain an over all efficiency increase of about 20% to 30%. Personally I've never achieved more than 20% but at the cost of energy these days I'd do it for 2%!
The flammability of R290 is a none issue but I'll leave it to those of you with intelligence enough to do your research and find the truth yourselves. I'll leave the Myth spitting idiots to themselves and hope the hell they never work on any AC system for any of my family!

Ahh hell here is some info from research done in Australia.
They have made R134 illegal to import or use. They use R290 and R600a.
Look here for another source of info. Not EPA Obama propaganda.

Remember the words are sometimes not spelled the way we do. They speak real English, we speak a dialect that is made up from many languages. I too prefer our way of spelling etc, but don't want you to think idiots wrote this.
They are just as smart as us and a hell of a lot smarter than the idiots running our country.

7 Ignition Probability

Lunde and Lorentzen [19] found that a toxic refrigerant ﬂammable in air but with an odour can have lower accident frequency and risk than a nontoxic, non ﬂammable, odorless refrigerant. The presence of odour from a leak warns people to take appropriate precautions. Almost all R290/600a used in MACS is odorized and this may be partly responsible for there being no recorded injuries or over pressures (Table 3).

Most of the predicted ﬁres in Table 3 were condenser leaks igniting following collisions. For example, [14] gave the frequency of leaks following collisions of 0.01 per car-year and multiplied this by a 0.01 conditional probability of ignition. Odour has no effect for most ﬁre scenarios as occupants are in the cabin and the leak is in the engine bay.

A typical MACS leak is less than 1 mg s −1 which is too small to sustain a ﬂame since the heat loss at ﬂame temperature is greater than the heat generation rate [20].

Leaks up to 15 g s−1 peak have been measured from MACS [4] and are possible after collisions. While liquid R290/600a remains above −20 ◦ C, the pressure in the MACS will be over 189 kPa. The jet from most such leaks only slows below the ﬂame velocity when it has mixed with air below the ﬂammable limit. It is ﬂammable only with a permanent ignition source [21]. Cars in normal operation have no exposed ignition sources for R290/600a [14] and permanent ignition sources are created in few collisions.

Fracture of the MACS liquid receiver or attached tubes in a collision can produce a leak rate up to 300 g s−1 [21] for less than 1 s. About 200 g of R290/600a liquid can ﬂash to a 25 L white cloud. The cloud is initially about 7 times denser than air but is ﬂammable only at its boundary. Normal atmospheric motion removes it from possible ignition sources in less than 2 s and dilutes it below ﬂammable in less than 10 s. Only cases without ignition are known [15].

For the previous reasons, R290/600a is non ﬂammable under the conditions of most leaks. This is consistent with the actual conditional probability of ignition being hundreds of Hydrocarbon ignition sources

Razmovski (1994) and Rajasekariah (1995) searched for ignition sources using
a propane welding torch attached to a cylinder of hydrocarbon refrigerant.
The car was parked in a sheltered outdoor position with fine weather.

They started the engine and allowed idling until it reached normal operating
temperature i.e., typically for ten minutes. They ignited the welding torch then adjusted it to give a stable yellow fame about 70 mm long. They extinguished the fame with an air blast and tested for easy re-ignition with lighted matches and cigarette lighter.

The extinguished torch was played over the hot engine, electrical, ignition and exhaust. Then the door, light and brake switches, fan motor, relays and cigarette lighter were tested in the passenger compartment. Each test took over fifteen minutes and 50 to 100 g of flammable refrigerant were used for each test depending on the car. Table 5 lists the model and year of manufacture of the ten cars. They found no ignition sources either inside or outside the passenger compartment on any of the cars tested.

Leakage of fuel into the passenger compartment is not uncommon. A manufacturer would be negligent to use open relays, switches or motors which could ignite a fuel/air mixture. Enclosed electrical components are also more reliable saving on warranty claims. The incidental effect is a match or cigarette lighter is the only ignition source for a refrigerant mixture in the passenger compartment as Razmovski and Rajasekariah found. The consumption of cigarettes over the whole driving population is equivalent to about ten cigarettes a day (Department of Community Services and Health 1990). I will assume that half the cigarettes consumed in cars are lit with the car’s cigarette lighter and would not cause ignition. We then have five potential ignitions per driver per day.

That's enough, go look for yourselves.
You can choose to believe the EPA if you wish.
I have had some very close up and personal contact and dealings with EPA!
They are Idiots with an IQ approximately the same as the square root of their shoe size! "

11-13-14, 09:37 AM	#11
buffalobillpatrick Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Florissant, Colorado Posts: 599 Thanks: 814 Thanked 59 Times in 55 Posts	This was posted on a Pro HVAC site: "I sure wish you (Pros) would stop the fear mongering, mythology etc about R290. It is not going to launch your house to the moon! It is much more efficient than the present garbage being pushed by big business an the EPA. Especially the EPA. They are spitting out lie after lie to keep you hooked into their systems. The auto ignition temperature is R290 is quite high making it a much safer gas to be around than gasoline but no one is afraid of gasoline! I have been servicing my personal central air systems with R290 for over 30 years. Yes I do check them for leaks with a torch and have found leaks this way. Yup it lights off! Don't pee your pants just put it out. Usually I blow it out. Wow that was scarey. Almost every country in the world uses R290 except the USA "GD EPA!" I also use a blend of R290/R600A in my automobiles. Have been since the lunacy about R12 started. Go get um Dupont. Sell um more crap, "R134A." Before I'll service my cars with R134A I'll drive with the windows down. That crap will kill you. Benefits of R290 are due to the uni molecule and a better laminar flow in the tubes, higher heat transfer etc. Even in old unit designed for R22 you will attain a savings in energy of approximately 20% by just replacing R22 with R290. With a new unit built for R290 you will save even more. First you save in initial cost as the tubing can be smaller, “costing less” the Compressor can be smaller due to the smaller loads, etc, etc, etc. My house has two units. One is a split unit with the Condenser/Compressor unit on the ground and the Evaporator/Air Handler in the attic above the third floor. The second unit is a Package 3.5 Ton Miller heat pump. The Miller was charged with R22 when I purchased it on Ebay for $32.00. I purchased a Foreclosure "highly vandalized" for setting up for retirement. The copper had been stolen so fixed up the split unit with copper and wiring and charged it up with the last of my R22 stock. It ran fine did a great job for about three weeks. I then started checking for leaks as it was not cooling very well. Pressure was down and I found a leak in the air handler. Not wanting to be ripped off again by my government and Dupont I said to hell with it and dried some old fashioned propane from a 100 lb bottle into a 30 lb recovery bottle. It's got to be dry! Real dry! Propane/R290 is totally orderless so they add “Methanethiol (also known as methyl Mercaptan) is a colorless gas with a smell like rotten cabbage” so you can smell it. I've heard it smells like the cabbage statement as well as rotten eggs. I don't think it smells like either of them. Mercaptan is Sulfur based and will make Sulfuric Acid in contact with moisture. Make it dry guys/gals. I use two large dryers in series with my manifold when charging my service bottle. Probably over kill but it works. I've never had any problems with years of using it in my systems. Of course there are manufacturers who make compressors and other equipment designed for R290 which makes it even more efficient. Smaller tubes as the uni molecule flows more efficiently than R22, “reducing the charge needed” therefore less product to move with the compressor thus saving energy. Even with that as I stated if you just recharge your old R22 system properly with R290 you will gain an over all efficiency increase of about 20% to 30%. Personally I've never achieved more than 20% but at the cost of energy these days I'd do it for 2%! The flammability of R290 is a none issue but I'll leave it to those of you with intelligence enough to do your research and find the truth yourselves. I'll leave the Myth spitting idiots to themselves and hope the hell they never work on any AC system for any of my family! Ahh hell here is some info from research done in Australia. They have made R134 illegal to import or use. They use R290 and R600a. Look here for another source of info. Not EPA Obama propaganda. Remember the words are sometimes not spelled the way we do. They speak real English, we speak a dialect that is made up from many languages. I too prefer our way of spelling etc, but don't want you to think idiots wrote this. They are just as smart as us and a hell of a lot smarter than the idiots running our country. 7 Ignition Probability Lunde and Lorentzen [19] found that a toxic refrigerant ﬂammable in air but with an odour can have lower accident frequency and risk than a nontoxic, non ﬂammable, odorless refrigerant. The presence of odour from a leak warns people to take appropriate precautions. Almost all R290/600a used in MACS is odorized and this may be partly responsible for there being no recorded injuries or over pressures (Table 3). Most of the predicted ﬁres in Table 3 were condenser leaks igniting following collisions. For example, [14] gave the frequency of leaks following collisions of 0.01 per car-year and multiplied this by a 0.01 conditional probability of ignition. Odour has no effect for most ﬁre scenarios as occupants are in the cabin and the leak is in the engine bay. A typical MACS leak is less than 1 mg s −1 which is too small to sustain a ﬂame since the heat loss at ﬂame temperature is greater than the heat generation rate [20]. Leaks up to 15 g s−1 peak have been measured from MACS [4] and are possible after collisions. While liquid R290/600a remains above −20 ◦ C, the pressure in the MACS will be over 189 kPa. The jet from most such leaks only slows below the ﬂame velocity when it has mixed with air below the ﬂammable limit. It is ﬂammable only with a permanent ignition source [21]. Cars in normal operation have no exposed ignition sources for R290/600a [14] and permanent ignition sources are created in few collisions. Fracture of the MACS liquid receiver or attached tubes in a collision can produce a leak rate up to 300 g s−1 [21] for less than 1 s. About 200 g of R290/600a liquid can ﬂash to a 25 L white cloud. The cloud is initially about 7 times denser than air but is ﬂammable only at its boundary. Normal atmospheric motion removes it from possible ignition sources in less than 2 s and dilutes it below ﬂammable in less than 10 s. Only cases without ignition are known [15]. For the previous reasons, R290/600a is non ﬂammable under the conditions of most leaks. This is consistent with the actual conditional probability of ignition being hundreds of Hydrocarbon ignition sources Razmovski (1994) and Rajasekariah (1995) searched for ignition sources using a propane welding torch attached to a cylinder of hydrocarbon refrigerant. The car was parked in a sheltered outdoor position with fine weather. They started the engine and allowed idling until it reached normal operating temperature i.e., typically for ten minutes. They ignited the welding torch then adjusted it to give a stable yellow fame about 70 mm long. They extinguished the fame with an air blast and tested for easy re-ignition with lighted matches and cigarette lighter. The extinguished torch was played over the hot engine, electrical, ignition and exhaust. Then the door, light and brake switches, fan motor, relays and cigarette lighter were tested in the passenger compartment. Each test took over fifteen minutes and 50 to 100 g of flammable refrigerant were used for each test depending on the car. Table 5 lists the model and year of manufacture of the ten cars. They found no ignition sources either inside or outside the passenger compartment on any of the cars tested. Leakage of fuel into the passenger compartment is not uncommon. A manufacturer would be negligent to use open relays, switches or motors which could ignite a fuel/air mixture. Enclosed electrical components are also more reliable saving on warranty claims. The incidental effect is a match or cigarette lighter is the only ignition source for a refrigerant mixture in the passenger compartment as Razmovski and Rajasekariah found. The consumption of cigarettes over the whole driving population is equivalent to about ten cigarettes a day (Department of Community Services and Health 1990). I will assume that half the cigarettes consumed in cars are lit with the car’s cigarette lighter and would not cause ignition. We then have five potential ignitions per driver per day. That's enough, go look for yourselves. You can choose to believe the EPA if you wish. I have had some very close up and personal contact and dealings with EPA! They are Idiots with an IQ approximately the same as the square root of their shoe size! " Last edited by buffalobillpatrick; 11-13-14 at 09:47 AM..