|
12-27-13, 08:36 PM | #1 |
Supreme EcoRenovator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,004
Thanks: 303
Thanked 724 Times in 534 Posts
|
Alternative Refrigeration and Refrigerants
Since we are a motley band of fiends bent on having our own peculiar way with refrigeration technology, I thought it would be fitting to open a brain-storming, no holds barred thread for discussing refrigeration alternatives (no limits here).
To kick things off, I found a very interesting paper called, "New, Natural and Alternative Refrigerants", available RIGHT HERE. After I read this paper, it went straight away into my horde of alternative energy documents, which has now swelled to a plump 7GB. I'd really like to know your thoughts. -AC
__________________
I'm not an HVAC technician. In fact, I'm barely even a hacker... |
12-27-13, 10:39 PM | #2 |
Supreme EcoRenovator
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,154
Thanks: 14
Thanked 257 Times in 241 Posts
|
To summarize, hydrocarbons show the most promise for DIY use.
__________________
To my surprise, shortly after Naomi Wu gave me a bit of fame for making good use of solar power, Allie Moore got really jealous of her... |
12-28-13, 09:20 AM | #3 |
Supreme EcoRenovator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,004
Thanks: 303
Thanked 724 Times in 534 Posts
|
You're right, but the paper illuminates so many interesting aspects to the field of refrigeration... some are practical, some are currently not.
I came across this paper, because I was searching for another paper, that recognized the efficiency of Propane (R290) but also described the potential for even higher efficiency of another refrigerant, Propylene (R1270). Turns out that R1270 (AKA: Propylene, Propene & Methylethylene) never got it's day in the sun because it was considered to be too expensive for large-scale manufacturing. Well, how could there be a more inviting reason to hack together a system that used R1270? I mean it's organic, exotic (it has been identified to exist on a moon of Saturn), efficient and industry has turned its back on it because it is too expensive! It's got it all!! BTW, and I might be wrong, but I think that Propylene is now being used in applications that formerly used MAPPS gas. I also came across, either in this paper or another one, the wide-scale, successful deployment of Butane (R600) in small refrigerators. And I encountered cautions regarding maximum prudent amounts of HC that should be deployed in low-infiltration occupied spaces. But who knew that there was such a thing as Magnetic Refrigeration? I don't currently see an application for near absolute zero refrigeration in my house, but what an amazing concept! -AC
__________________
I'm not an HVAC technician. In fact, I'm barely even a hacker... Last edited by AC_Hacker; 12-28-13 at 09:26 AM.. |
The Following User Says Thank You to AC_Hacker For This Useful Post: | MEMPHIS91 (04-24-16) |
12-28-13, 12:05 AM | #4 |
Apprentice EcoRenovator
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: PNW
Posts: 197
Thanks: 0
Thanked 47 Times in 31 Posts
|
In my professional life, AIR was the refrigerant of choice. Air cycle, centrifugal compressor @ 30,000 rpm.
Kinda hard to do even in a corporate environment, but sure is 'green', eh? If I can find another 2T scroll someplace for 'cheap', I'll do a bbq propane with only normal filter dryer and see what happens. TXV, no orifice or cap tube. |
12-28-13, 08:41 AM | #5 | |
Supreme EcoRenovator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,004
Thanks: 303
Thanked 724 Times in 534 Posts
|
Quote:
-AC
__________________
I'm not an HVAC technician. In fact, I'm barely even a hacker... |
|
12-28-13, 11:07 AM | #6 |
Supreme EcoRenovator
|
Propylene is only expensive at the consumer level. The gas is in high demand as a staple feedstock of the plastics industry. There is an imbalance between this high demand and the natural supply (from oil and gas wells), so the refineries make propylene by reacting propane with a catalyst, yielding propylene and hydrogen. Due to the economic rise of China and India, demand for plastic products has and will continue to increase drastically.
As we speak, the petroleum industry leaders are racing each other to build propylene plants. The larger demand for propylene (and ethylene) coupled with the low cost of natural gas makes for a high-stakes scramble to the top. Due to the fracking craze, the oil giants have found undiscovered treasure in their old wells that are no longer producing oil. Compared to the processes currently employed to manufacture "modern" refrigerants, the proplylene process is like mixing cool-aid. It has to be much less expensive. The best thing about it is, it works as a drop-in replacement for R22, even better than propane. Last edited by jeff5may; 12-28-13 at 11:10 AM.. Reason: grammars |
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to jeff5may For This Useful Post: |
12-28-13, 12:41 PM | #7 |
Too Many Projects
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: georgia
Posts: 91
Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
|
I remember all those homework exercises that began with "Propylene (or ethylene, or whatever) is adiabatically compressed from something kPa to .......... calculate H".
All these years I thought such gasses existed for no other purpose than to torture students. Well, ethylene was at least useful if you were the oracle at Delphi, but getting high and having visions isn't a useful point of interest in HVAC. |
12-28-13, 01:52 PM | #8 |
Supreme EcoRenovator
|
The two processes I'd love to see progress in are:
1. Stirling Cycle (refrigeration and CHP) 2. Dessicant Systems (both PCM and liquid-based heating/cooling/dehumidification) |
12-29-13, 12:52 AM | #9 | |
Supreme EcoRenovator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,004
Thanks: 303
Thanked 724 Times in 534 Posts
|
Quote:
-AC
__________________
I'm not an HVAC technician. In fact, I'm barely even a hacker... |
|
The Following User Says Thank You to AC_Hacker For This Useful Post: | buffalobillpatrick (05-14-14) |
04-24-16, 11:33 AM | #10 |
Journeyman EcoRenovator
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Oxford, MS USA
Posts: 496
Thanks: 69
Thanked 87 Times in 61 Posts
|
I love my R290 its cheap, easy to use, and lets you know if you have a leak (lol).
But in my recent experience, 80% R1270, and 20% R290 worked amazingly well. Though I saw slightly higher amp draw from the compressor my COP jump .7 from just using plan R290. I have more data on this in the hot water heater build when I finally get the time to post again.
__________________
שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל ה' אֱלֹהֵינוּ ה' אֶחָד |
|
|