Hidden phantom loads

Piwoslaw · 05-30-10, 02:40 PM

We are used to looking for phantom loads at the wall outlet: anything that gets plugged in can be measured through a Kill-a-Watt and/or unplugged. But not everything in the house is easily unpluggable, some things are hardwired into the house's electrical system and only flipping a circuit breaker will turn them off. If you're lucky, it's the only thing on the breaker. And since we are not used to flipping our circuit breakers too often, nor do know about every single thing connected to each breaker, there may be phantom loads hiding right under our noses. For example, I read here (or over at EcoModder) that someone's hot water tank was wired straight into the breaker box. I'm guessing things like attic fans or sump pumps may also be hanging on breakers, with no plugs or switches to turm them off.

Last year Dad-in-law decided to install an automatic gate, so that we don't have to get out into the rain or snow when leaving the driveway or returning home. Also, the traffic on our street is increasing, so leaving the car in the street while fumbling with the lock and latch isn't a good idea. Last week it stopped working, so I took a multimeter and had a look inside. Everything was fine (sans the zapped motor), except for one thing: the transformer inside is HOT! I doubt this is the real problem, as voltage on both sides of the transformer is as it should be, plus the electronics say everything is OK, but do I remember that in the winter the snow on top of the motor housing would melt quite quickly.

I never measured the current draw before, because this thing's wiring goes straight to the circuit box, but this was a good occasion to somehow rig it to the Kill-a-Watt. It turned out that it's sucking 31.5W, 24h a day! Our "multimedia corner" (37" LCD, DVD, sat, home theater) draws 25-30W when everything is in standby, and that's the first thing that got put on a powerstrip after I moved in. A constant draw of 31.5W uses more energy per day (0.75kWh) than our efficient refrigerator (0.65kWh). And they say that the fridge is the largest energy hog in the house?

The RTV corner is constantly drawing 25W and is actually used for 2-4h per day, but it gets turned off otherwise, so why is the gate motor, which draws 30W and is in use for 2 minutes every 2-3 days, always on? If it was up to me, then I'd just flip the circuit breaker whenever I leave the house for the car, and turn it back off when I return. But it's not up to me. I use the car once a week, Dad-in-law is lazy and uses it more often (and for shorter trips), and he's not willing to use his memory cells for yet another dumb saving thing which the kids are inflicting upon him to make his life harder. Bummer. I could try switching it off whenever I'm at home and know that he's not taking the car, but inevitably I'll forget one day, and there will be a problem.

Back to the point: In many houses there are stealth loads, phantom loads that you don't even think about, because you don't actually see them plugged. When all of us leave for a longer weekend, I'll flip all the circuit breakers except for the kitchen, where the only thing plugged in will be the fridge. I'm thinking about a semi automatic set-up, that could be tied into an alarm system, if the house has one. Then when in 'away' mode, only a few outlets in the house would have power, and the HVAC would automatically be informed, and the automatic gate and/or garage door would be energized. I guess that's doable.

Ryland · 05-30-10, 04:01 PM

I was one of the people that on both forums pointed out that tank style water heaters are a big phantom load and I'm slowly working on a device to help fix that without leaving you in a cold shower, this same device should be easily adapted to help in other ways but cutting power to other loads while not in use.
I have often thought about if I had a TV that it would be a good idea to have it's power strip on a timer, that is of course assuming you have patterns that you fallow in your TV watching, say you watch TV most evenings from 7-9pm the timer would in an ideal world give you a little extra time before hand and after but would otherwise replace your 30 watt phantom load with a 1-3 watt load of the timer (I might be off on the timer energy use, but I'm pretty sure I'm close) thus cutting your phantom loads by nearly 18kwh per month!
A friend of mine recommended skipping timers on my water heater and going to a twist timer that I have to turn on but that turns it's self off after the set amount of time, he said after your first few cold showers you will remember to turn it on and you will save a ton of energy, but I live with a lady who is willing to let me make changes to the house that save us energy, she even shares the cost of those changes, as long as it doesn't leave her in a cold shower.
As I see it, more devices should have smart controllers on them, or at least timers on them, with your driveway gate you know that you are not going to leave the house say between 11pm and 6am and if you get a timer that allows for 7 day programing you can tell it to kill power while you are at work but not on the weekends in the day time, same thing with your timer on your power strip for your TV.
Timers like this have over ride switches, so if you are home sick you can over ride it but the rest of the time it's saving you energy.
Another idea for your gate switch is to have a controller that is turned on by the car running over a soft rubber hose that triggers a switch, a traffic sensor of sorts, that then turns on the remote, or key pad and opener.
You might also be able to rig up a normal relay, or a solid state relay and another power supply so the controls for the gate have a more efficient power supply powering them and the transformer only kicks on when the motor needs to kick on.

I'm sorry if I drifted off topic a bit.
Black & Decker make a device, like the Kill-a-watt only it goes on your electric meter and you have a hand held read out so you can stand at your breaker box or where ever and see how much electricity is being used while you turn devices on or off.

Common devices that I tend to forget about from time to time that draw electricity.

Cordless tool battery chargers.
Motion sensing lights (half a watt and up to 5 or more watts)
The above mentioned entertainment centers.
garage door openers.
door bells (yep! I've seen from 3-8 watts for their transformer)
and I know there are other devices but I can't think of all of them at this time.
I tend to have a pretty sparse electrical use party due to my having had grown up in a house that was off grid run off solar and wind.

Piwoslaw · 05-30-10, 11:39 PM

Thanks for the ideas, Ryland

Our gate has presence detectors on the yard side (so it doesn't close when there is a car in the gate) and I thought about using those to turn the transformer on, but then I realised the dog loves to sit next to the gate, sometimes for hours, right between those detectors. A second set of detectors on the street side would often be triggered by his friends. I'm determined to think of something, since a steady load of 31.5W comes to 276kWh per year, that's our average for two summer months! I wish that number would make an impression on Dad-in-law, but he's of the "I can afford to be lazy" type:/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryland

Common devices that I tend to forget about from time to time that draw electricity.
...
door bells (yep! I've seen from 3-8 watts for their transformer)

Yeah, I checked that too while I was in the breaker box: 3W. The old doorbell (changed last year) drew 8W and didn't even work most of the time! I think door bells should be of the open-circuit-which-closes-when-button-is-pushed design, not the humming-until-something-happens design.

Xringer · 06-01-10, 01:59 PM

"I think door bells should be of the open-circuit-which-closes-when-button-is-pushed design, not the humming-until-something-happens design."

I've been thinking about that too.. But, maybe my doorbell transformer could do some
double duty and provide a few Miliamps of current to my fancy new thermostat?
It would run it, even if the AA cells died, and it's LCD back-light could stay on.. (nite lite).

The only real doorbell transformer solution is to use a PS that goes to
sleep during zero current draw and comes on, only when there is a demand.
Ideally, the circuit would only use a few miliwatts, until the button was pressed.

I just had a flash.. An SS relay in the primary and a 9V battery in series
with the door button and the SS relay DC control.
With the amount of visitors we get, I'm guessing the 9V would last about 10 years..

Ryland · 06-02-10, 02:22 PM

I was thinking something along the same lines as Xringer, only I was just reading about piezo electric push buttons that instead of closing a switch they give a little jolt of power, if that jolt powered up a solid state relay then you'd be all set, not sure if a piezo switch like that would be powerful enough for the solid state relay but it'd be worth looking in to.
I also wonder if there is a good source for solid state relays as I've read a little about them too and how they work best with A/C because they close at the mid point in the sign wave, when the voltage is at -0- or I wonder if a switching power supply would work for door bells as they tend to draw fractions of a watt at the very most when they are not in use.

QUOTE=Xringer;6935]
I just had a flash.. A SS relay in the primary and a 9V battery in series
with the door button and the SS relay DC control.
With the amount of visitors we get, I'm guessing the 9V would last about 10 years..

[/QUOTE]

Xringer · 06-02-10, 05:31 PM

The only piezo electric push buttons that I've seen around here are on my BBQ grill..
And they put out a bunch of voltage. So much, I'm guessing the SS relay would be toasted.
Don't some of them use an LED? Sort of opto-isolator style?
The ones I have around here use 3 to 12VDC IIRC.

Here's a DC SS relay that can take up to 32VDC (for control)..

Piwoslaw · 06-09-10, 03:17 PM

Doorbells... Where did they come from? Ah! A bell next to the door. With a string to pull when you want it to ring. No wires, no electricity, no phantom loads. Back to the basics.

Of course, our doorbell button is at the gate, about 25ft from the house, so I'd need a looong string

Xringer · 06-09-10, 04:31 PM

I was just thinking about my neighbor across the street. My circuit idea wouldn't work
well with his new button.. It's got an Incandescence lamp inside.
That would keep the SS relay on.. That lamp would have to go!

Clev · 06-10-10, 01:35 AM

The doorbell is a good one. Also remember that security systems have those big honking vampires, as do some older furnaces (to power the thermostat and relays.) A switchmode power supply could, I believe, replace these transformer-based units and draw only a watt or two rather than 7-30 watts in standby.

Oh, and another culprit: when I first got my Kill A Watt, I went around testing everything in the house. I found that my Boston Acoustics computer speakers, which had a huge transformer-type power supply, were drawing a continuous 42 watts, even when powered off or unplugged from the power supply. Needless to say, they got scrapped.

Ryland · 06-10-10, 08:41 AM

I forgot all about our furnace! it's 25 years old, was the best and newest of the time so it has a pile of electronics in it.

05-30-10, 02:40 PM	#1
Piwoslaw Super Moderator Join Date: May 2009 Location: Warsaw, Poland Posts: 962 Thanks: 188 Thanked 110 Times in 86 Posts	Hidden phantom loads We are used to looking for phantom loads at the wall outlet: anything that gets plugged in can be measured through a Kill-a-Watt and/or unplugged. But not everything in the house is easily unpluggable, some things are hardwired into the house's electrical system and only flipping a circuit breaker will turn them off. If you're lucky, it's the only thing on the breaker. And since we are not used to flipping our circuit breakers too often, nor do know about every single thing connected to each breaker, there may be phantom loads hiding right under our noses. For example, I read here (or over at EcoModder) that someone's hot water tank was wired straight into the breaker box. I'm guessing things like attic fans or sump pumps may also be hanging on breakers, with no plugs or switches to turm them off. Last year Dad-in-law decided to install an automatic gate, so that we don't have to get out into the rain or snow when leaving the driveway or returning home. Also, the traffic on our street is increasing, so leaving the car in the street while fumbling with the lock and latch isn't a good idea. Last week it stopped working, so I took a multimeter and had a look inside. Everything was fine (sans the zapped motor), except for one thing: the transformer inside is HOT! I doubt this is the real problem, as voltage on both sides of the transformer is as it should be, plus the electronics say everything is OK, but do I remember that in the winter the snow on top of the motor housing would melt quite quickly. I never measured the current draw before, because this thing's wiring goes straight to the circuit box, but this was a good occasion to somehow rig it to the Kill-a-Watt. It turned out that it's sucking 31.5W, 24h a day! Our "multimedia corner" (37" LCD, DVD, sat, home theater) draws 25-30W when everything is in standby, and that's the first thing that got put on a powerstrip after I moved in. A constant draw of 31.5W uses more energy per day (0.75kWh) than our efficient refrigerator (0.65kWh). And they say that the fridge is the largest energy hog in the house? The RTV corner is constantly drawing 25W and is actually used for 2-4h per day, but it gets turned off otherwise, so why is the gate motor, which draws 30W and is in use for 2 minutes every 2-3 days, always on? If it was up to me, then I'd just flip the circuit breaker whenever I leave the house for the car, and turn it back off when I return. But it's not up to me. I use the car once a week, Dad-in-law is lazy and uses it more often (and for shorter trips), and he's not willing to use his memory cells for yet another dumb saving thing which the kids are inflicting upon him to make his life harder. Bummer. I could try switching it off whenever I'm at home and know that he's not taking the car, but inevitably I'll forget one day, and there will be a problem. Back to the point: In many houses there are stealth loads, phantom loads that you don't even think about, because you don't actually see them plugged. When all of us leave for a longer weekend, I'll flip all the circuit breakers except for the kitchen, where the only thing plugged in will be the fridge. I'm thinking about a semi automatic set-up, that could be tied into an alarm system, if the house has one. Then when in 'away' mode, only a few outlets in the house would have power, and the HVAC would automatically be informed, and the automatic gate and/or garage door would be energized. I guess that's doable.

05-30-10, 04:01 PM	#2
Ryland Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Western Wisconsin. Posts: 913 Thanks: 127 Thanked 82 Times in 71 Posts	I was one of the people that on both forums pointed out that tank style water heaters are a big phantom load and I'm slowly working on a device to help fix that without leaving you in a cold shower, this same device should be easily adapted to help in other ways but cutting power to other loads while not in use. I have often thought about if I had a TV that it would be a good idea to have it's power strip on a timer, that is of course assuming you have patterns that you fallow in your TV watching, say you watch TV most evenings from 7-9pm the timer would in an ideal world give you a little extra time before hand and after but would otherwise replace your 30 watt phantom load with a 1-3 watt load of the timer (I might be off on the timer energy use, but I'm pretty sure I'm close) thus cutting your phantom loads by nearly 18kwh per month! A friend of mine recommended skipping timers on my water heater and going to a twist timer that I have to turn on but that turns it's self off after the set amount of time, he said after your first few cold showers you will remember to turn it on and you will save a ton of energy, but I live with a lady who is willing to let me make changes to the house that save us energy, she even shares the cost of those changes, as long as it doesn't leave her in a cold shower. As I see it, more devices should have smart controllers on them, or at least timers on them, with your driveway gate you know that you are not going to leave the house say between 11pm and 6am and if you get a timer that allows for 7 day programing you can tell it to kill power while you are at work but not on the weekends in the day time, same thing with your timer on your power strip for your TV. Timers like this have over ride switches, so if you are home sick you can over ride it but the rest of the time it's saving you energy. Another idea for your gate switch is to have a controller that is turned on by the car running over a soft rubber hose that triggers a switch, a traffic sensor of sorts, that then turns on the remote, or key pad and opener. You might also be able to rig up a normal relay, or a solid state relay and another power supply so the controls for the gate have a more efficient power supply powering them and the transformer only kicks on when the motor needs to kick on. I'm sorry if I drifted off topic a bit. Black & Decker make a device, like the Kill-a-watt only it goes on your electric meter and you have a hand held read out so you can stand at your breaker box or where ever and see how much electricity is being used while you turn devices on or off. Common devices that I tend to forget about from time to time that draw electricity. Cordless tool battery chargers. Motion sensing lights (half a watt and up to 5 or more watts) The above mentioned entertainment centers. garage door openers. door bells (yep! I've seen from 3-8 watts for their transformer) and I know there are other devices but I can't think of all of them at this time. I tend to have a pretty sparse electrical use party due to my having had grown up in a house that was off grid run off solar and wind.

06-01-10, 01:59 PM	#4
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	"I think door bells should be of the open-circuit-which-closes-when-button-is-pushed design, not the humming-until-something-happens design." I've been thinking about that too.. But, maybe my doorbell transformer could do some double duty and provide a few Miliamps of current to my fancy new thermostat? It would run it, even if the AA cells died, and it's LCD back-light could stay on.. (nite lite). The only real doorbell transformer solution is to use a PS that goes to sleep during zero current draw and comes on, only when there is a demand. Ideally, the circuit would only use a few miliwatts, until the button was pressed. I just had a flash.. An SS relay in the primary and a 9V battery in series with the door button and the SS relay DC control. With the amount of visitors we get, I'm guessing the 9V would last about 10 years..

06-02-10, 02:22 PM	#5
Ryland Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Western Wisconsin. Posts: 913 Thanks: 127 Thanked 82 Times in 71 Posts	I was thinking something along the same lines as Xringer, only I was just reading about piezo electric push buttons that instead of closing a switch they give a little jolt of power, if that jolt powered up a solid state relay then you'd be all set, not sure if a piezo switch like that would be powerful enough for the solid state relay but it'd be worth looking in to. I also wonder if there is a good source for solid state relays as I've read a little about them too and how they work best with A/C because they close at the mid point in the sign wave, when the voltage is at -0- or I wonder if a switching power supply would work for door bells as they tend to draw fractions of a watt at the very most when they are not in use. QUOTE=Xringer;6935] I just had a flash.. A SS relay in the primary and a 9V battery in series with the door button and the SS relay DC control. With the amount of visitors we get, I'm guessing the 9V would last about 10 years.. [/QUOTE]

06-02-10, 05:31 PM	#6
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	The only piezo electric push buttons that I've seen around here are on my BBQ grill.. And they put out a bunch of voltage. So much, I'm guessing the SS relay would be toasted. Don't some of them use an LED? Sort of opto-isolator style? The ones I have around here use 3 to 12VDC IIRC. Here's a DC SS relay that can take up to 32VDC (for control)..

06-09-10, 03:17 PM	#7
Piwoslaw Super Moderator Join Date: May 2009 Location: Warsaw, Poland Posts: 962 Thanks: 188 Thanked 110 Times in 86 Posts	Doorbells... Where did they come from? Ah! A bell next to the door. With a string to pull when you want it to ring. No wires, no electricity, no phantom loads. Back to the basics. Of course, our doorbell button is at the gate, about 25ft from the house, so I'd need a looong string

06-09-10, 04:31 PM	#8
Xringer Lex Parsimoniae Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 4,918 Thanks: 114 Thanked 250 Times in 230 Posts	I was just thinking about my neighbor across the street. My circuit idea wouldn't work well with his new button.. It's got an Incandescence lamp inside. That would keep the SS relay on.. That lamp would have to go!

06-10-10, 01:35 AM	#9
Clev Wannabe greenie Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Crestline, CA Posts: 74 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	The doorbell is a good one. Also remember that security systems have those big honking vampires, as do some older furnaces (to power the thermostat and relays.) A switchmode power supply could, I believe, replace these transformer-based units and draw only a watt or two rather than 7-30 watts in standby. Oh, and another culprit: when I first got my Kill A Watt, I went around testing everything in the house. I found that my Boston Acoustics computer speakers, which had a huge transformer-type power supply, were drawing a continuous 42 watts, even when powered off or unplugged from the power supply. Needless to say, they got scrapped.

06-10-10, 08:41 AM	#10
Ryland Master EcoRenovator Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Western Wisconsin. Posts: 913 Thanks: 127 Thanked 82 Times in 71 Posts	I forgot all about our furnace! it's 25 years old, was the best and newest of the time so it has a pile of electronics in it.