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Old 02-23-15, 04:40 PM   #510
Mikesolar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AC_Hacker View Post
I think I did address that when I indicated that extra pumping would be required, and I indicated that the increased volume could be achieved with less power (linear increase rather than quadratic increase).

It was after that section that I included my statements on reynolds number, as it needs to be re-calculated. If I failed to make that connection clearly, let me know and I will re-edit.



NEVER?

I think this is where the kind of thinking that is needed for Low-Temperature Heating departs from conventional thinking that has worked so well in the past.

Fortuitously, I came across THIS_PAPER just today, that addresses certain aspects of Low-Temperature Heating. Here is a segment that talks about the need for increased flow rates when using low-temp heating.



I ran into Low-Exergy Heating and this whole different way of thinking when I was researching the possibility of heating my house with solar, in Western Oregon, where I live, where direct winter sun is rarely available. It turns out that even on an overcast day, a solar collector can produce 80 degree F water. So I started researching if it would be possible to do that. I learned that first of all it was necessary to drastically reduce the heating load (this is where Passive House ideas are so useful), and also the heating system itself would need to be substantially different from conventional designs.

So I pursued radical radiant floor designs, and began computer modeling them to see if 80F feed temp (or less) would work. This lead me the the LowEx consortium, and their work. It was during this phase that I was spending a lot of time with the RadiantWorks hydronic modeling program, to see if the physics of radiant floors would allow me to achieve my goal.

It turns out that really close spacings (<= 6") are key. RadiantWorks was not designed to go narrower than 6", so I called one of their Tech Reps on the issue and he said that narrower spacings were required and that flow rates would need to be increased above what is commonly used, to make it happen.

The interesting thing to me is that the radical approaches to heating with low temperature sources will also have a tremendously positive effect on conventional fuel sources, because far less of them will be required.

Who knows, maybe less of Canada would need become a Sacrifice Zone if we designed heating systems as if the availability of fossil fuels could someday decline.

-AC
AC, that is a good paper. I may have overlooked something in your comments to misconstrue your points. Regardless, if you look back through any posting I have made, I have stated over and over that tighter spacing is better and that some people I know in europe are using 100mm (4") spacing.

It is true that an increased flow rate is needed but it is an increase in pumping rate OVERALL, not necessarily per loop. The paper you noted indicates that constant flow is desired, which is also consistent with the advise given to Drake and others regarding how to move the solar heat to the cooler areas.

Also, the max temps and flow rates are needed at heat load conditions, so what will happen at, for example, 0C where only half the energy is needed. We can heat at 28 or 30C but if we go much below 23-24C the comfort level of the floor may be affected. We therefore have a condition that the paper does not talk about (unless I missed it) which is what to do during part load, run at full and open a window? It is a bit of a conundrum for any heating designer.
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